A misunderstanding not a gearing question

69ST

Well-Known Member
You guys are killing me. So many options and even then; will it meet expectations.
Clearly, you do understand what I meant about the migraines. There are too many variables, and the most important ones are subjective, for this to be a simple black & white decision. EVERY engine setup involves at least one significant compromise, most have a lot more than that. For that reason, IMHO, the best place to start is with a clear list of priorities & objectives. Brutal honesty...with yourself...is the key and it's not as easy as it seems, in text. You said that the MSX125/Grom powerband met your requirements, which I used as a starting point...narrowing the discussion, quite a bit.

With this go-around (circa 1998), I tested better than a half-dozen engine combos...after 2+ years of homework (the US small bike scene hadn't begun yet) it still took ~5 years to decide which was "best" and the refinements to just the one bike haven't ended, only become fewer & further between. What I've offered-up, so far, is a capsule summary and a narrow one at that. If you want to dive into the obsessive-completist rabbit hole, just say so. Know up-front, it's going to mean a ton of verbiage...

My honest and first thought was why can’t I get a Grom motor in there and carburate it. If I could get that kind of power band into my 70 I would have it back out on the road. Not sure where I take this next.
That would be a massive undertaking, including serious electrical mods, fitment issues and major surgery to the frame...including a repaint. Expect the motor, itself, to comprise the "little 50%" of the bottom line.
 

OLD CT

Well-Known Member
I know you will make a good choice. If you already have the new style 12v cases no points with the correct new pump that frees up a good chunk of cash. I would dremmel the cases you have like the dratv site shows you what/where needs grinding. That's how I did mine. You put the case together with the screws and slowly bore it out till the cylinder slides on/off just right. Not too tight and not too loose. The 124 is my favorite engine. Naturally, I didn't buy the 190cc yet. So can't comment other than from what I hear that it is a beast. In other words, no problem with worrying about holding up traffic.;) Maybe someday.
 

Deoodles

Well-Known Member
Took the bike out to look it over. I have ATV 70 cases with needle bearings on this build I also converted it to 12 V CDI so realistically I only need to replace the crank, cylinder, with components and piston with the longer cylinder will the engine guard still fit? It seems like a no brainer to work this engine. Starting from scratch means sourcing another transmission assembly as well as flywheel, clutch, and electrical components then they may not even be good I know what I have is good I’ve already rebuilt this transmission.
 

OLD CT

Well-Known Member
Yes, the guard will fit. Dratv has the longer stud and chain kit. I think I had to change out the cam sprocket also. Can't remember for sure. The stock front fender clearance is a little less but still fits. You have a low mount fender, I think?
 

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
Your 108 is probably worth $4-500 as it sits, with carb, to a random stranger in need. It's worth the price of the parts to you...maybe 750-850. It's worth a million dollars when you need a good engine ASAP.
If you tear it apart and rebuild it, you will be left with a used crank, cylinder, and maybe a head...200-250.?? maybe.

If you rob the stator, clutch and primary gears, and both side covers, for your new motor, the 108 can be put back together for only the price of those parts...and it will run just the same as when you last ran it.
That may be the good happy medium.
Then the only Xtra money you spend is for the cases, trans, and kickstart shaft...Thats all! 200 bucks Maybe a $40 oil pump too. Everything else needs to be bought and built either way.

I just hate the thought of tearing apart a perfectly great running engine to save a few hundred dollars.

I think your 124cc engine needs to be built with a 124cc specific head and carburetor...and that is the last best reason to keep your 108cc motor on the shelf.

If you want the best...a cruiser...you might want to consider a Honda NICE. Smooth solid 60-65mph power. In my mind, the NICE 110 would be a very good...equalish match to a Grom .

If you want best bang, big power, with a GOOD rep, Daytona Anima 190.
There are OTHER 190's, but the Anima seems to be the one with a solid reputation...Zongshen 190 kinda sounds promising too.

As I so often say...a LOT of my opinions are based solely on what I've read or somehow know. The guys with real experience...have real experience. Take my opinions for what they're worth. You CAN'T hurt my feelings.
 

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
If any of this ^^ isn't clear, I can clarify. But you have to consider how much you REALLY save, and REALLY lose, when you ravage a good motor.
 

Deoodles

Well-Known Member
Out tonight on the 500. Really enjoying it and not bothered by the fact that it is a Rebel. I can’t do the Daytona Anema 190. I don’t need that much motor. I looked it over and watched a few YouTube videos. Weight to power ratios would be excessive for the CT frame IMO. The only way I’ll have one is if I ever get my hands on decent CL70. I’d love to build that. I want reliable so either I build a 124 from scratch or rebuild the 108. I like the square concept and dont need a 70mph screamer. You make a good argument Kirrbby for shelving the 108 but that makes a from scratch 124 close enough to a used Nice 110. So it cones down to do I want or need a spare motor. IDK ??? That spare would end up costing me closer to 500 to put on the shelf. New shift forks, clutch, cases gears and probably rebuilding a used kick start shaft. It starts to add up. I like your thinking and will think about it.
 

Attachments

  • E1617A1B-7E6B-4430-A97C-A883C5B00601.jpeg
    E1617A1B-7E6B-4430-A97C-A883C5B00601.jpeg
    1.5 MB · Views: 93
Last edited:

69ST

Well-Known Member
On the fitment front...
The 124 requires a 69mm tall cylinder. Sound like a big increase? It isn't, stock is 63mm. The engine guard will just fit with a Nice motor...which has a 78mm tall cylinder...15mm taller than stock. Anything built on a 49cc lower end will be an easy fit...induction assembly, brake pedal, footrest, kickstand can all remain unchanged.

You might have to tweak the muffler hanger, slightly, to accommodate the 6mm forward shift; at most, it'd need a little massaging with a round file to open-up the slot. You probably have enough leeway, as-is. With any of the other engine choices, the hanger would have to be modified.

All of the larger (100cc+) engines have different architecture...like comparing a SBC to a BBC...or a Chrysler hemi V8. They're wider, so the footrest asm. becomes an issue, along with the kickstand, brake pedal, engine guard, and induction asm. They're basically all 12v/CDI, so there will be some wiring & electrical mods involved.

The 190cc Daytona lump is an involved topic, all its own. For a machine that's never going to cover many miles...such as a race bike...it tops the cheap horsepower list. For a road bike, that leaves a lot unanswered...like EVERYTHING ELSE. Are there any other details/parameters that would matter to you...or anyone else...whose goal is a well-balanced road cruiser? What will it take to a.) fit the frame? b.) balance the rolling chassis to the power? and what's the longest field service history, i.e. top mileage tota,l and what it took to get there? That's just for starters.

IMO, you've got the right concept, every bike has its place & purpose. Go too far in any direction and there's going to be a different machine that is far better suited. Given enough motivation, time & ability, someone could probably find a way to attach a CT70 frame to an LS3 V8..a gross oversimplification + overstatement that illustrates the point, here.

Kirrbby makes some valid points, things that occurred to me, also. OTOH, so too did yours. What you're really talking about is shelving a 51mm crank, 52mm cylinder & piston and a few small parts. The only things that get upset are the piston rings & cylinder...once they leave the bore, that's it. And it'd be very difficult to remove them whilst keeping everything completely clean. Your existing head, carb & exhaust should handle the horsepower level...and then some. You should see more hp but it's the torque increase that will be bigger. I'd email hondatrailbikes and dratv to find out the differences in combustion chamber configuration, if there are any, compared to a 6V CT70 head. The other key parameter is the total combustion chamber volume of your existing head. Dratv also lists a flat top piston; thus, as long as combustion chamber volume is 14cc, or less, you'd have at least 9:1 static CR if the pop-up slug can't be used. But find out if the recommended piston will work, or could be modified (for valve clearance, if needed) first. There's also the 52x54 possibility, which won't breathe quite as freely, up-top, but sacrifices very little torque. Small bore/long stroke (undersquare) configuration tends to produce higher static CRs. Make no mistake, I'm with Pat on this one...54x54mm is my first choice, given my druthers. Oh, and you'll be using the same 28t cam sprocket...or else(!)...just a longer chain.

The upside of what you're contemplating (reconfiguring your existing motor) is the sheer lack of other changes. Even the outward appearance won't change much. Paint the jug black and most folks will never give it a second glance. You will have to rejet the carb and that's about it. Monitor oil temps. Chances are, they won't be significantly different (once the engine is broken-in). If they are, it'd be easy enough to upsize the oil cooler which, frankly, I don't think will be necessary.
 

Deoodles

Well-Known Member
I’m getting frustrated with TB right now. I have exchanged 6 emails with them asking only 1 question.
“ is the TB race head old dome 6v or new dome 12v and can not get an answer I understand. Can anyone look at the reply and figure out what they are saying?

The piston is the new style if you are running our stroker crank. TBW0365 is the part number for the piston.

Or race head has 25/22mm valves and a 21mm intake port
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
That only addresses piston compression height directly. The combustion chamber configuration is addressed indirectly, which is a bit frustrating. Perhaps a workaround question is whether the TB head can be used as a direct bolt-on, with an otherwise stock K0-K1 CT70 engine. If the answer is "yes", then you know that the larger 6V piston dome will fit the TB combustion chamber. Methinks that dratv is best source for your answers, regarding the 54x54mm configuration. They supply all of the parts and also sell the TB product.

If you end up really stuck, i.e. no vendor can, or will, provide the answer you're after, there's always the direct comparison method, i.e. this head side-by-side with a 6V CT70 head. There's really nothing "magical" about this TB head. Don't misunderstand, it's well-designed, works well, and is a quality piece. OTOH, the old CT70 head is nearly as good, in terms of port flow & valve size (24mm intake as I recall)...the biggest advantage of the TB head is the fact that it's a 12V style meaning 12V/ball bearing cams, of which there are more choices. Personally, I prefer the ball bearing cam setup but, in the real world, how many worn-out 6V cam journals have been reported? In terms of performance, you're shifting the balance further toward the "stomper" end of the continuum, away from the "screamer" end. With the parts compliment you have, it'd almost be difficult to get less than 60-65mph top end regardless. The torque curve will virtually be sitting on the sideline, watching the decision process. :whistle:

The hardcore/roll-your-own method...
Assemble the top end, sans piston rings & cam sprocket, rotate the engine by hand. No contact means the combustion chamber/piston dome will play nicely together...time to retest with the valve train operating. If there is contact, time to break out the clay, to see where it is occurring. That may be correctable with a die grinder, or another piston with the "new dome". Valve reliefs can usually be enlarged without much fanfare, combustion chamber clearance...not so much.
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
The piston in your linked photo looks like a "new dome" configuration, take a close look at the squish band, it's wider than stock 6V, by quite a bit - proportionately. The fly in this ointment...54mm bore size.

Subject to revision, that's almost certain to follow with more detailed info, it's looking to me like the flat top piston is a safe "fallback". It'd be very telling to know the TB combustion chamber volume. As long as it's no more than 14cc (12, with a thick composition type headgasket would be close to ideal) this (flat top piston) should be viable.

Keep plugging away...we'll get this sorted...
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
Seriously, that's where I'd start. They're the ones selling the parts needed to build the 54x54 tune...and the TB parts.
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
Next step(s) in the process, getting a volume spec (in CCs) for the TB head combustion chamber volume. What's compression height of the TB piston...the 54mm slug, used with the 117? If that's right, you know that the dome will be, for this head.
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
TB sells a few different 117cc "kits" based on a 54mm bore, paired with a 51mm stroke. The most commonly-seen version uses the TB head. So-o-o-o-o-o...all's ya gotta do, in theory, is match the piston's compression height to the crankshaft (i.e. "long rod"/shorter piston, or "short rod"/taller piston...as with an 6v era z50, or CT70, that has the stock crank). If the squish band has zero deck height (i.e. is flush with the top of the cylinder bore, at TDC) you should be good-to-go. TB has already matched the piston dome to the combustion chamber of their own head.

I'm a bit surprised that fatcaaat hasn't chimed-in on this one. When it comes to creative engine configurations, he's tried more than just about anyone I can think of.
 

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
Food for thought...
If you're considering buying a race head for a 124cc build, why not consider a tb V2 head??
:)

11671.jpeg
 
Top