71K0 just brought out of a LOOONNGG storage.

Hey guys, need some advice here. Got a call from Kevin a few weeks ago about a ticking coming from the engine that didn't sound good, so I went and checked it. Certainly a noticeable ticking from the intake rocker. Well, I went back there Saturday morning with some tools and checked the valve lash. It was perfect, still at .002.
My initial thought was the bike got laid over with the throttle stuck wide open or something, but the more I think about it, the more I am suspect of the new CHP valves that were installed(they are not OEM or the ones that say "made in Japan"). I have never heard here of anyone having trouble with them, so I'm kinda stumped. Checked the mileage and its only had around 200miles since the redo. Don't know when I will go pick up the bike, but would like some suggestions on what to look for. I will most likely pull the head.

A lot of these engines develop valvetrain noises at, various stages, after a rebuild. Most commonly, they manifest as engine temp changes. Oftentimes, they go away with mileage. IMHO, it has to do with unwanted, lateral, rocker arm movement. The rocker arms and cam can wear over time. Inadvertently swapping I&E rockers will give you a mismatched wear pattern. The adjusters can wear asymmetrically, which is even more likely.

While the rocker cover if removed, try wiggling the rocker arm. You'll probably be able to create a ticking sound using nothing more than fingertips. Try temporarily tightening the valve lash...to the absolute limit...and see if the noise is diminished, or goes away. If it does, you might try throwing new lash adjusters at it. If there's no effect, time to look deeper.

Ticking noises can be a MoFo to accurately diagnose, as they resonate throughout the motor. I've run across situations where the issue was caused by the piston...fresh rebuild. ~4 years ago, I ran across a few basackward pistons. Literally, flipping them 180-degress eliminated the noise and caused no problems despite the spark plug & valve reliefs being in the wrong places. Needless to say, those pistons were replaced, problem(s) solved. However, more times than not, ticking noises result from connecting rod wear and you know what-all that involves.

I remember purposefully marking/bagging those rocker assemblies to put them back right. The noise, to me, is obviously coming from the intake rocker and is very pronounced. The cam and rockers were in very good shape. Guess I'll have to wait until the bike is here to have another go at it.

cjpayne said:

I remember purposefully marking/bagging those rocker assemblies to put them back right. The noise, to me, is obviously coming from the intake rocker and is very pronounced. The cam and rockers were in very good shape. Guess I'll have to wait until the bike is here to have another go at it.

Click to expand...

If you are 100% positive of this, then there aren't many places to look...or things to <potentially> fix. Unless the end of the valve stem has worn, I don't see how the valve, itself, could be the issue. Excessive lash, excess lateral "walk" are, ostensibly, the most likely. Excessive stem-to-guide clearance completes the list.

Should you end up pulling the head, and find nothing, then it'd be time to throw a new adjuster (and possibly a new rocker arm) at it. It is possible to shim the rocker, which will limit "walk".

Yeah, if I cant get it to adjust, I think I will throw a new rocker/adjuster at it.
In the back of my tortured brain, I keep getting the notion that the quality of the valve is the issue. Since I don't know the true origin of the valves, I have to assume its china crap and the metallurgy isn't right. I'm also hoping that the cam isn't damaged from this, as I don't know how long this was going on. Kevin told me he just started noticing it and parked it. Glad he did. I also hope the valve seat isn't damaged.

I can empathize, as in "been there...done that...". That said, think about this from a coldly rational perspective. What, exactly, would a low-quality valve really mean? Metallurgically, it'd essentially mean an alloy that's either too hard or too soft. In real-world terms, that'd be stainless, stellite, or titanium...expensive, expensiver and expensivest. Aside from the fact that these materials are way too costly to be used for cheap valves, non-magnetic stainless is the material used for good quality exhaust valves, in these engines...always has been. If a hardness "mismatch" between valve & seat were an issue, these things would be notorious for wear problems this <ostensibly> would cause. But, it's the intake side that has some issues, the exhaust side has proved virtually indestructible. Those (in)famous "tuliped" intake valves exemplify what can happen when the valve is softer than its seat...the valve wears-out, not the seat. Any seat erosion is the result of high-pressure/high-temp combustion gases leaking past the valve (that manifests as the ever-popular blackened intake port)...and minimal. The most "out there" scenarios I can imagine would be a mismatch with the valve guide. Too tight, or too loose, the engine would run like crap, at best. No engine is going to run with a stuck valve. IOW, this is a non-issue.

Unless the engine swallows a valve, i.e. the head breaks off, or the valve seizes and gets overly-familiar with the piston, there's virtually no chance of any serious damage. Worst case, in real-world terms, the guide is worn...necessitating a new guide, valve, seat cutting & lapping. Then it's cake & ice cream for everyone...

Thanks for easing my tortured brain.lol.
I remember wanting the valves replaced because of the carbon found in the intake. I disassembled the head, except for the valves, and gave it to Kevin. He had someone put the new CHP valves in that he ordered. Hopefully they did lap them(thats why I didnt do it myself), but I never checked. The bike did run like a top, and, from the feel of the kicker, had plenty of compression. Still feels that way.

All good signs, especially the compression and overall performance, imho.

The one area where I'll never agree, blindly lapping a valve. Don't get me wrong, it is possible to get a good result but, an optimal result is unlikely. It's mainly a question of longevity and sealing power, under pressure, neither of which will have anything to do with valvetrain clatter. If anything, you'd see increased rate(s) of valve recession, lash would get smaller and, it'd take fewer miles before reversion (intake side) returns. Occasionally, I'll end up just lapping the valves, or installing new valves and only lapping them. Sometimes, a head will be in amazingly good condition, as-received; that doesn't happen often. I verify seat condition and contact band(s) first, never leaving this to chance. If this was done with the head in question, then it's one more item you can cross off your list...one less thing to obsess over...

Got her cleaned and in the house. This thing is still a pretty little bike. Did notice that the carb bowl is starting to seep a little when I drained the gas.

I tried to do the valve adjust thing to no avail. Just curious, I started checking things and thought I'd see, if possible, that the Tchain tensioner isnt stuck. I removed the cam cover to see if the chain was loose and found some kinda bizarre contamination. Its almost like paper, but its definitely not gasket material. I have NO IDEA what it is. It looks like its been chewed up too.
I'm now thinking that the oil screen is clogged with this stuff and has caused oil starvation at the head and is causing the intake ticking. I checked the exhaust valve cover to see if it had oil in it....very little. This sucks!!!

dunno if this will help, but you can pull the intake valve cover and start up the bike and you should see oil spurting out around the rocker. That will tell you if your getting oil to the head. But it never hurts to clean that screen. I sometimes will just drain the oil and use a mirror to view the screen. I have a adapter that hooks up to my shop vac, it reduces the hose down to a 3/16" soft blue polyurethane fuel line and I can vacuum the screen. Gets 80% of the surface area. I cut the end of the fuel line at about 15 degrees. saves pulling the RH side cover

I forgot to update because I got a shocker of something I saw.
I went to drain the oil and it barely dripped out. It took HOURS to drain the oil. I thought maybe the vent line was clogged and stuck a wire up in there and it was clear. Removed the dipstick and no difference either. Something, somehow got in and the screen is very clogged. I will start tearing things down later. First will be the clutch cover to try and see what exactly is going on. I'm sure now that the motor will need to be totally flushed. Hopefully it wont need a complete teardown.
Luckily, the oil is still pretty clean looking and nothing smells burnt or charred. I will remove the cam and rockers later for inspection. Since the contamination is in the Tchain area too, the stator plate needs to come out also.
I'm beginning to think someone went to check the oil level with a small piece of shop towel or something similar and it got in. Anyway, it did and the aftermath is a mess.

I think you're right. The good news...the lower end is probably okay. The bad news...the head may be injured. I've run across a few examples of engines that were run with a non-functioning oil pump, following a rebuild. One that truly stands out, in memory, was ridden for 5 days(!) before the cam/rocker assembly destroyed itself. Everything from the cylinder & below, survived on splash oiling.
You definitely want to open the oil spinner and check the cam + bearing journals in the head casting.

IMO, ctbale is dead-on. The oil metering orifice is a tiny passage, very easily clogged. If it is obstructed by a hairball, the head is going to suffer. OTOH, this is the only point in the oiling system with any real oil pressure and that could have kept the fibers from accumulating. I'd pull the oil pump, to look inside that chamber, also pull the oil pump cover to inspect the gerotor assembly.

I took the stator plate off and, of course, the stuff is in there too. I'm thinking this junk got into the tranny also. I'm thinking complete teardown and flushing is the only way to go to make sure all the crap is gone. I might as well go ahead and pull the motor as the next step.

I cant believe this happened or how. This was a very good, strong running engine. I checked the mileage since it was gone through and its only 134miles.lol. This bike is mostly just ridden around the yard and at low speeds for very short periods. For right now, all I need is a center case gasket and some time.

these motors are pretty tough. My girlfriend took my two 1977 ct70s riding a month ago, we got to a logging road where we had to go thru about a 10" of standing water. Engs were 1/3rd submerged. I was really more worried about water in the brakes. Delt with that, but a few days later checked oil and the oil in her motor it looked like a vanilla milkshake so somehow her motor sucked water in the engine. Same as you, I thought the motor was toast. Dumped the oil, put fresh oil in, ran it for 20 mins, dumped the oil again. Then pulled the RH side cover off, there was white goo everywhere. Pulled the screen, pulled the clutch spinner. Cleaned it all out, leaned the bike to the right and used an entire can of brake/parts cleaner and pressure washed everything I could see. I had a gallon of walmart 10w-30 so after putting it all back together, did like 4 oil changes after a 30 min ride, over and over. Last two the oil was clear. Set valves and snugged up timing chain. been riding the thing everyday since, runs just fine.

But mine didnt have solid chunks. I didnt want to pull the motor and split the cases.

I dunno, If it was my bike I would do everything I did, plus pop off the stator, check that out and maybe just run it. The only concern would be plugging up the screen from any material still in the tranny and starving your oil pump pickup point.

Nothing wrong with splitting the cases; it's the most thorough way to inspect & clean things. One problem...if the piston leaves the bore, the rings probably won't seat a second time. Since ring seal wasn't an issue, that's gonna involve some pain. Should be easy enough to deglaze the cylinder and throw-in a new set of rings...if one has easy access to the proper size dingleberry hone. Most of us do not so, now it's new cylinder & rings, unless the existing jug was overbored. Decisions...decisions...

I expect the problem will be in the head, maybe not pretty. Lack of oiling will eventually result in burned cam bearings, an integral part of the casting. It'll be interesting to see what, if anything, is inside the oil spinner, pump and main oiling passages. Oh yeah, the passage located in the outer clutch cover should be addressed at the same time.

OTOH, I'd be very surprised if any bottom end parts were injured. Crank bearings, as well as most of the tranny parts, are made from hard steel.

From what I saw when the valve caps came off, there was no contamination. I guess when the bike was shut off, the loose stuff flooded over to the left side when the bike was put on its stand and leaned over, then started back up again later, which would explain the junk on the inside of the cam cover. I think the oil screen did its job, but was just simply overwhelmed.
Since its possible, I'll try not to remove the piston from the bore. Shouldn't be that hard, just have to careful when cleaning the oil passages out and from behind the piston.
I'm sure about the clutch cover passages being infected too. I bet everything is. Even the clutch will need to come completely apart I'm sure.
As for the head, Kevin did say that as soon as he noticed the ticking from the head, he immediately shut it off and then later called me about it. Kinda crossing my fingers about the cam journals, as this engine does have the original head E7-6(six in a circle) and I want it saved.

The inside of these engines are like a combination blender/shredder and nuclear steroids. Between the gears, crankshaft, clutch, oil pump, and cam drive assembly, anything floating loose is going to be pureed & circulated throughout.

Agreed, splitting the cases is sound practice. And, with this kind of minimal mileage, it should be easy enough to clean the outside of the motor...well enough to prevent grit from getting into the cylinder...allowing you to leave the piston inside the bore. Be prepared, extracting the wrist pin is ticklish; there's just enough piston length to allow this.

I can tell you that lack of top end oil flow results in the head getting hot enough that after just a few minutes, it's like WTF?!! The overheating is dramatic enough that there's no need to grab the IR thermometer. Now, before panic sets in, needlessly, I'll clarify. This is what happens when the oil pump isn't working, IOW total lack of top end oil flow. Your situation is different. Hopefully, the flow restriction came on gradually, wasn't total and your friend shutdown the motor in time.

At this stage, may as well pull the head and see what you're dealing with, rather than prolonging the mental torture.

After I got home from work last night and commented here, I went ahead and pulled the motor out. The motor is still pretty clean on the outside, but could use some cleaning around the sprocket area and a little on the bottom. Next step I'll just go ahead and get it squeaky clean with some GUNK and a quick rinse.
Why is it that sometimes I need more than one oil drain pan????LOL. I wanted to save and filter out the oil for an initial flush, but couldn't find an empty oil container, but at the same time I wanted to put the motor in the oil drain pan and clean it.

What you said about the head getting really hot kinda makes me want to go ahead and replace the rings.
I talked to Kevin yesterday and I'm waiting on the gasket set to show up before I really get into tearing things down, but yeah, that head is bothering me for an inspection. I already figure the cam and rockers are toast, but want to see those journals.

It seems someone may have stuffed a paper towel in the engine.