02 Rupp Scrambler Trail 70 clone - 12v or 6v? Tips on making lights work?

Discussion in 'CT70 Reproductions' started by Joe_G, Dec 9, 2016.

  1. Joe_G

    Joe_G New Member

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    Hi folks, glad to have found your forum, I've learned a lot and contributed a fair bit on Corvetteforum and HDforum.

    My 14 year old son saved his grass cutting money and he purchased a used Rupp Scrambler Trail 70 that we are working on. Runs great but we want to get the lights working. The horn works great, but none of the lights work.

    It's missing a battery, but using my multimeter the bike puts out 8 to 10 volts depending upon how high I rev it, testing on the horn leads and also on the battery leads.

    Are these Chinese clones 6 volt or 12 volt? The taillight uses an 1157 bulb which is 12 volt and the horn says 12v on it, but the 8-10 volt output would make me think it's a 6 volt system and the battery box is tiny to hold the old 6 volt batteries.

    Next project is to take the right handlebar control apart to see why none of the lights work. Any advice on this would be appreciated too.

    Edit: here is a video of the charging circuit in action, as well as the wiring in the headlight bucket. Appreciate any advice on anything that looks wrong. I have a set of controls on order as it's clear the headlight switch is busted.

    [video]https://youtu.be/u7xUoOcAFbY[/video]

    [video=youtube;u7xUoOcAFbY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7xUoOcAFbY&t=20s[/video]


    Pics of headlight bucket and battery holder - notice how small the battery holder is. Do they make a 12 volt battery this small??

    6D3F7861-923F-4596-884B-BF4F3FC3F447_zpsfrzdybok.jpg

    2659C83B-A706-4422-B461-FE7F2A853F2A_zpspvbram7b.jpg
     
    #1 Joe_G, Dec 9, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2016
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  3. kirrbby

    kirrbby Well-Known Member

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  4. Joe_G

    Joe_G New Member

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    Kirrbby that is the EXACT bike we have. Same color and all.

    Any experience with them?

    From my research it seems it should be a 12 volt system but it only puts out 8, 10 if I rev it high, and to me that's about what a 6 volt system would do. And the battery box is so small I've never seen 12 volt battery that small but the 6 volt fits perfectly. That said, the horn and taillight bulb are 12 v....

    I'm thinking I'll put in a 6 volt battery and see what happens. They are $22 at my local batteries plus, not a lot of money.
     
  5. kirrbby

    kirrbby Well-Known Member

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    It looks like a typical ct70 clone to me, which would be 12v CDI engine...no points behind the flywheel. But I don't know how to diagnose your symptom. There is a regulator/rectifier in the system somewhere. I'm wondering if that could have gone bad. Could just have a short somewhere. Are you measuring AC voltage or DC? Maybe try both. The rectifier should be converting AC from the stator, to DC to charge the battery. Headlight is powered by AC, straight from the stator...no battery involved. TL and signals are battery powered. Is your keyswitch turned full on?
     
    #4 kirrbby, Dec 9, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016
  6. kirrbby

    kirrbby Well-Known Member

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  7. OLD CT

    OLD CT Well-Known Member

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    I had the same original Rupp as the one in the first picture blue frame and a silver tank! I actually had the Scrambler and the green HK0 at the same time when I was 11. Rupp really pulled a boner this time! Using their name of a classic on a already ''over populated'' market of CT70 clones! Good job Rupp! :21:

    Anyhow, I can tell you that some China clone stators suck and can't keep up to their advertised 12V status. I have encountered a lot of problems with them not keeping up.
     
    #6 OLD CT, Dec 9, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2017
  8. racerx

    racerx Administrator
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    Agreed, recycling the Rupp moniker on a CT70 knockoff went over like a fart inside a pantomine horse costume.:painkiller: Dumb move.

    That said, the Honda patent didn't expire until 1998; the first clones hit the US market circa 2000-01 and it took a few years before they really took off. These badge-engineered Jincheng bikes were among the earliest and, as clones/knockoffs go, they weren't bad. The detailing was among the best I can recall. They were also among the first to vanish from the market, due to their pricing...which ran as high as $2600...about the same as the last of the 12V Honda CT70s. I bought a mountain of discontinued Rupp parts, before this forum began (mid-2005), for pennies on the dollar. That's when the knockoff/clone CT70 market got overcrowded in a hurry and the "race to the bottom began...FWTW.

    This bike is based more on the last of the line, the 1990s-era AB26 model Dax, but with some details that no OEM CT70 had...like the 4-speed/manual engine, with 12v/CDI electrics.

    Testing the electrical output should be your first step. I don't know the color-coding scheme used on this bike, so I have to make some educated guesses. There should be two AC leads. On most bikes (including)OEM Honda) they are white & yellow. White is half the alternator output and routed to the reg/rec unit; its output (from the reg/rec) goes to the battery(+)...i.e. it's the charging circuit. The yellow AC lead goes to the reg/rec, but is "Teed" to the HL switch.

    With both AC leads disconnected from all electrical loads, you should see 30+VAC, from either lead, as the engine is revved. At idle, voltage falls-off as dramatically as it rises with rpm. The voltmeter is run from one AC output, to ground. If you see AC readings peak out at 8-10V, regardless of rpm, then you know the problem...a weak alternator. On the other hand, if you see 20-50V (as rpm increases), then it's time to look downstream for the voltage drain...most likely, alternator output isn't the issue. This could be something as simple as too much current draw...as could result from an oversized HL bulb, bad switch, broken/shorted lead, or mouse damage (they have a preternatural taste for CT0 wiring...inside the frame), or a failed reg/rec.

    It's possible that the lighting circuit output is inadequate. However, since the engine fires & runs normally, that pretty well rules-out a weak flywheel magnet. (The primary ignition coil is completely separate from the lighting coil). IOW, worst case it might be a lighting coil array or/and reg/rec nit. Those are replaceable and not expensive.

    Time to start the electrical detective work. Be forewarned, that can be very frustrating, especially for the inexperienced. However, the lighting & charging systems of these bikes are about as simple as they come...and so are the repairs.
     
  9. Joe_G

    Joe_G New Member

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    Thanks Kirrbby, this is a nice clear wiring diagram and that website has some great info as well, I appreciate the link.

    Thanks for the bit of history Racerx, and thanks VERY much for the specs on chasing the electrical problem. I am not a mechanic but I've been a shade tree guy wrenching on my cars and bikes for 35 years and I actually like chasing electrical problems. Well to be clear, I like FIXING electrical problems!

    My off/parking/headlight switch feels funny, it's not clicking over properly. It only goes to park easily, not headlights on. I bet I need a new switch. I'm going to try to take it apart and check it out.. if it ever warms up, my garage has no heat! I just moved back to St. Louis (home) from Miami and I'm not used to this cold.

    And my bike came with no key, it seems a key is broken off in the switch as I can move the switch from off to on, it doesn't shut the bike off though when I turn the key switch off.

    So you guys are pretty clear this bike is 12 volt? Where can you get a 12 volt battery that small? I can only seem to find 6 volt batteries that small...

    Thanks gents for helping this newbie (to the CT70 world) out!
     
  10. racerx

    racerx Administrator
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    Some of the best work is turned out by dedicated hobbyists and there are a lot of talented shadetree mechanics out there.

    My suggestion to you is to follow a basic procedure and possibly (most likely) save yourself a lot of needless hassle.
    Verify alternator output, on both AC leads it is the easiest part of the process.

    You could replace the entire electrical & lighting system, downstream of the alternator. A number of vendors sell them for clone bikes. For that matter, a bad stator could be replaced, or repaired, if need be. Still, it's way too early to start throwing parts at the bike, imho...and highly unlikely that more than one component is involved.

    Post a photo of the battery box, or at least its L/W/H dimensions.
     
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  11. kirrbby

    kirrbby Well-Known Member

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    That diagram is 91-94 ct70 which is pretty much what your bike is modeled after. They cloned them pretty close too, so hopefully the wire colors and all match. No guarantees tho.
    You could check for continuity between the ignition switch body and the engine case. If the switch is not tight...making good contact with the frame, that would cause the issue with shutting off the engine. Might even effect the lighting.
     
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  12. Joe_G

    Joe_G New Member

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    I was able to do a little work on the bike today. I installed a 6v battery, it was cheap locally and it fit the battery box. There's no way a 12 volt battery would fit that box.

    Turns out the bike was made in 2002 by Lifan, seems that is a common clone manufacturer of that time.

    With the battery, the horn sounds better than it did but it's much quieter. The key switch, which has a busted key broken off in it, does operate with a screwdriver and when the key is off, the horn won't work. When the key is on, horn works.

    Motor starts and runs with key on or off. The kill switch does work and did even without a battery.

    I took apart the right control, and specifically the headlight on/off/parking switch and the bb that is the "detent" for the switch was out of place. I reseated the two contacts and cleaned them but the lights still do not work. With the engine running, I was getting less than 1 volt of DC on the yellow wires, nothing on the other wires. I forgot to check and see if I was getting AC voltage, normally in my experience there is no AC voltage except coming from the stator to the rectifier, not in the switches so I forgot to check. I got the headlight switch working better, not sure if it's getting good contact but there was no voltage to it to speak of so I need to find out why there's no voltage.

    Do these bikes have AC voltage in the headlight switch? I understand the bike must be running for the headlight to work, mine doesn't running or not. No lights work at all.

    I have a speedometer cable coming this week (mine is MIA) so I figured I'd take apart the headlight bucket when I install that and check out the wiring there and see if the bulbs are good. I see Beatrice cycles sells controls for the clone bikes pretty cheap, I may buy that if I can't get it figured out as my headlight switch is brittle and sketchy. I also see WEbllc on eBay sells a complete wiring kit with headlight controls, speedometer, turn signals, everything for $180 shipped, hate to spend all that money but seems it might be worth it if I can't get everything working.

    Any advice on the web llc kit or any other advice? it's much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
     
  13. Joe_G

    Joe_G New Member

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    Racerx I'm sorry I missed your post, the battery box is about 3 x 3 by 4" high. The little 6 volt battery fits perfectly. I will take a pic tomorrow after work.

    I agree with your suggestion, I don't like to throw parts at something unnecessarily, I need to get the headlight out and check out all that wiring and see where the headlight switch wiring terminates and check that out. A prior owner has removed the turn signals and the speedo is missing it's glass and doesn't work as there is no cable. I have the cable and glass coming Wednesday and will dig in to the headlight bucket and it's wiring at that time. I'm hoping I find something disconnected in there and I can reconnect it.

    I am afraid my headlight switch is bad, the contacts are tiny, and though they are in there and the springs behind the contacts are good, I don't see that switch working reliably as it's just worn. However, since there is no power to it, I don't think it's the problem at this time. I need to go downstream and see where I get power and where I don't. As I mentioned I do get 8-10 volts to the battery hot wire when the battery is disconnected to the system works somewhat.
     
  14. b52bombardier1

    b52bombardier1 Well-Known Member

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    If the rectifier is bad, yes you certainly can get AC leaking past the diodes to reach the battery. If it is very much AC, it'll ruin that new battery.

    The test for this is simple and non invasive if you have a good multimeter that can measure small amounts of alternating current. The cheapy meters usually can't.

    Rick
     
    #13 b52bombardier1, Dec 12, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2017
  15. racerx

    racerx Administrator
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    The Lifan parts are an interesting twist. `02-`03 has to be among the earliest batch. In early `04, I bought a sizable lot of Rupp parts; many of them, mostly mufflers were clearly stamped "JINCHENG". Looks like these bikes may have been assembled, using multiple suppliers, much the same as OEM. At this late date, it scarcely matters...other than as interesting history for some of us.

    With all of the electrical hacketry done by the PO, there's a high likelihood that it's the source of your electrical woes. That doesn't preclude a failed/failing rectifier. But, without getting the wiring sorted first, you'll just be treating the symptoms instead of the underlying problem.

    What seems kinda weird is your voltage test result. Seems more in line with a 6v system. However, the weakened horn...6v battery fitted...sez that this is a 12v system. Wouldn't be hard to change the bulbs to 6v. Since the turn signals are MIA, you could source aftermarket stalk assemblies & a 6v relay. BUT...before going through all of that, better figure out what the alternator can sustain (there are 6v reg/rec units available) first. Otherwise, you could end up chasing yourself around in circles.

    If you know how to remove the spades from the harness side of the harness-to-alternator connector, pull the two AC leads. Then check AC voltage, at varying revs. Didn't want to get into this right off the bat. Now seems the logical time to do this. Check AC voltage from each feed, to ground, then across the two AC feeds. Let's see what the alternator is doing, freed from the rest of the unknown wiring.
     
  16. Joe_G

    Joe_G New Member

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    I do know how to take apart and reinstall connectors, I had to do it on my Harley to swap tanks and bars. Matter of fact I carry a multimeter in my saddlebag on long trips, and at Daytona Bike week I used it to diagnose a bad regulator on a friend's harley, the Harley AC output spec was easily available online.

    Racer is there a spec for AC output?

    By the way, here's my proud boy with his new scooter he bought from his first job, saved every nickel to do it.

    IMG_1698_zpsy3qggedu.jpg


    Here's my regular ride by the way on the back of my Vette when I moved for Fort Lauderdale to St. Louis last summer. The Vette got 21 mpg pulling the Harley, straight through, 1200 miles and 21 hours... and that's with the 4.10 gears and big cam I have in it! I had a dozen people take pictures of me, I guess they've never seen a Vette pull a trailer with a Harley on it. lol
     
    #15 Joe_G, Dec 12, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2016
  17. kirrbby

    kirrbby Well-Known Member

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    Both pics are awesome.
     
  18. Joe_G

    Joe_G New Member

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    Thanks! My boy is on cloud nine with his scooter. I so wanted one as a kid but never had one so I'm happy he gets to enjoy one.
     
  19. cjpayne

    cjpayne Well-Known Member

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    Pretty cool pics. I've never seen a Vette pulling anything......except a cop.lol
     
  20. Joe_G

    Joe_G New Member

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    Thanks!

    The Vette is pretty quick too when it's not my tow vehicle. Lol

    [video]https://youtu.be/MyufsJIqa9I[/video]



    Sorry for the diversion. I will post up after I dig into the headlight bucket in a couple days.
     
  21. Gary

    Gary Well-Known Member

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    Your getting better mileage than my Avalanche when it's empty! I get no better than 19 on the interstate. CJ I had a friend send me this picture,turns out it's on a bunch of Vette sites if you google it. Quite the delivery system :1:

    little boy.JPG
     
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