Adding a LED to an aftermarket large housing.

Discussion in 'Modifications' started by Deoodles, Nov 15, 2019.

  1. allenp42

    allenp42 Well-Known Member

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    You did it correctly, however a 40watt LED bulb does not use 40 watts of DC power. Rough guess 6-10 watts.

    From your measurements, your system is working well.....extremely well. Now it's only a question of how much capacity you have. As a suggestion, if you can temporally connect up an old HL you have laying around, or exchange your tail light bulb with a 1157, you'll be adding in more load than you'll ever see from LED lamps.
     
    #201 allenp42, Jan 28, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  2. racerx

    racerx Administrator
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    Adjustable load + voltmeter + ammeter...the ideal testing setup, imho.(y) I remember a time when some cars had ammeters in the gauge cluster, one of the most useful instruments for avoiding being stranded with a dead battery.

    Sounds right, to me. Does this electrical system speak in a deep, baritone, voice? It's got some big balls.;)

    *EDIT* I missed that part where you mentioned the HD being a 40W-equivalent LED. That does make a difference. Still a good result, however.
     
    #202 racerx, Jan 28, 2020
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  3. Deoodles

    Deoodles Well-Known Member

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    Getting somewhere. I used a headlight from my mercury grand marquis. 65 watts. Total was 75 watts on the system. Maxed out the regulator at 15.0 volts and the battery was discharging from static of 12.6 down to 12.4v dynamic with the bulb on. It was too much for the system to keep up with. Just saw your edit. So with the Harley headlight it is a 50 watt draw total. That is close to maxing out the stator. I’m going to say 50 watts is it. 45 watts even better.

    edit: Specs on the 40 watt led. I believe it is 40 watts

    A1542727-A58C-4DE1-87ED-DC929E30B304.jpeg
     
    #203 Deoodles, Jan 28, 2020
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  4. racerx

    racerx Administrator
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    That's still a damned impressive result, IMHO
     
  5. allenp42

    allenp42 Well-Known Member

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    Put a ribbon on this project and call it a success. 45-50 watts is way more than you need with LED. Should be good to go for a long time now.

    Nice and impressive!
     
  6. Deoodles

    Deoodles Well-Known Member

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    Yup. I think your right. Looks like it’s time; but, for Racer I have a lingering question. Couldn’t I go back to the sealed lead battery and run it at 14 .2 volts? Seems like the higher volts would equal brighter lights. Not that I need them but I get the feeling the SLA type battery is finicky and likes 12.8 v max
     
  7. racerx

    racerx Administrator
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    I don't know what going back to 14.2v would do, overall...probably nothing much. From what I've experienced, firsthand, the sealed AGM type batteries are quite forgiving. I don't see any point in feeding more than 13v into one, however. I've a Belkin computer backup power supply (UPS) with a larger version of this battery, input voltage to the battery is 13.0v.

    Never checked charging voltage running half-wave/"balanced" system but, I'd be seriously shocked (no pun intended) to learn that voltage was less than 13v, those systems just aren't regulated very well...a far cry from what you have in place now. And one battery lasted over a decade in that setup. Batteries are cheap. TrailTech recommends keeping the setting above 12.8v. The main reason I decreased voltage was to maximize LED & control module life. The components I'm using are expensive, for what they are, close to $400 all-in...the HL alone was $70. FYI, the headlight is 16W/24W and plenty potent, brighter than a lot of car headlights, so nothing to be gained there. Your setup...and results...may be different.
     
  8. Deoodles

    Deoodles Well-Known Member

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    Thanks again. I’m good. Hope I don’t have to come back to this thread for a while!!
     
  9. racerx

    racerx Administrator
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    Stepping back for a wider perspective, a couple of points worth considering...particularly for anyone starting from scratch.

    First, the mere fact that the TT150 is rated for 150W...about twice the max output from any of these alternators (those would be 6-coil type which are uncommon) is a level of overkill that is virtually bulletproof/failsafe. It's also not an expensive item. Hopefully, that encourages others to take a shot at this type of electrical upgrade.

    Second, while $200 is not an unreasonable price point...which works out closer to $300 by the time the reg/rec, wire and small items are all purchased & installed, these parts appear to be going extinct...and...6v parts leave you with fewer choices. FWIW, in your place, I'd have done just what you did. Becoming your own warehouse for backup/spare parts is sometimes the only way to keep a machine running.

    That said, going into a similar project from scratch, 12v flavor parts, throughout, make more sense imho. That's enough budget to source a 12v-style (CRF/XR, etc 50 or 70) alternator and CDI module...OEM Honda parts. Those aren't going extinct anytime soon and the aftermarket offers more engine options, throughout. If you can deal with adding a 12v-style crankshaft (to fit the 12v flywheel), life gets easier; the best time for that is when the cases are split anyway. We've seen bare 12v stator armatures wound...and capable of 50W just using 4 of the five poles...leaving the fifth bare.

    The point of my ramblings is that the results of this thread are very much applicable & usable...more universal than some might think. Building one's own version can be done with with a different alternator/stator, it's not dependent upon the specific (and vanishing) alternator shown/used in this thread. It's possible to rewind a 6v lighting coil for 12v/full wave DC output, retaining the rest of the stator assembly (including the breaker point ignition) and flywheel, if desired. This thread is valuable resource material, to anyone who wishes to seriously upgrade the lighting/electrical system on one of these bikes.
     
  10. kirrbby

    kirrbby Well-Known Member

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    I definitely need to read back thru this thread a little. I got a bit behind a while back.

    I have a couple questions :)

    I can only remember one of them right now tho...
    I thought the steel core, of each coil, played a big part of how a stator makes electricity... The magnetic force, passes each end of the steel core, drawing electrons thru the core and into the copper winding, where the electrons...condense...or strengthen thru the windings, and are pushed out into the regulator...and so on.

    The full wave system seems to take the steel core right out of the equation, since the windings are not attached(grounded to the core. So...how does this work?? When copper is not drawn to a magnet??

    Sorry. Probably a bad time to throw this out there.
     
    #210 kirrbby, Jan 29, 2020
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  11. racerx

    racerx Administrator
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    These are good, basic, questions. I mean it's not strictly necessary to understand any of the science/principles to make this work...but it should at least feel easier once you understand some of them.

    The ferrous metal core (armature) is an essential element of an induction coil. This is what conducts magnetic force. Wind copper wire around a long nail, then connect the ends to a battery...voila! you've created an electromagnet. That's the same as an induction coil, only used "in reverse"...with a permanent magnet to supply the force.

    Ever attach a magnet to a small steel piece, like a bolt...then use the end of the bolt as a magnet, until the actual magnet is removed? That's essentially what occurs every time the rotor (flywheel) magnet(s) pass over the exposed end of a coil armature. By winding wire around that core, electrical current is induced in the wire. Without that ferrous core, this couldn't happen, since copper cannot be magnetized, even temporarily. What we're doing is capturing the induced current, via the ends of the coil winding(s). FYI, since permanent magnets have poles, the polarity (i.e. flow direction) of the electrical current through the coil reverses as the magnet poles spin past...that creates an alternating current. That alternating current has a waveform, essentially a sine wave...with both + and - peaks. Those are represented, graphically, as points above and below a zero axis. Voltage is represented by the distance above, or/and below the zero axis.

    AC cannot be used with batteries, most electronics and it's brutal on LEDs.

    Graphically represented, we can use one half of the AC waveform...either the portion above, or below, the zero axis, as DC. But, that leaves us with less than 50% of the electrical power being generated (induced), which doesn't leave much usable electrical current. Honda chose to use raw AC, since conventional bulbs don't mind. Using AC, both the positive and negative phases (halves of the waveform above & below the zero axis) are harnessed...and the power is now the combined (overall) distance between the waveform halves, with no loss through a rectifier. For the charging circuit, they went with a simple diode. It's cheap, rugged and requires a grounded coil; it's also very inefficient. The best way (functionally) to go is taking the two AC outputs, then phase-matching them into DC. The circuitry used to accomplish this (diode bridge) is very efficient and leaves you with 98-99% of AC output available as DC. The cost difference between the fullwave reg/rec unit we've been talking about and a new silicon diode is less than $40...at full retail. But...at OEM wholesale, the cost differences are multiplied and calculated very differently. And, electronic technology has progressed by light-years since 1969. Take a look at the CL70 electrical system...which was full wave; it required a battery ignition. You can do far better than that circa 2020...everything powered by DC combined with magneto ignition. I do realize this goes beyond what you asked. However, IMO it's easier to understand if you know the reasons why these systems were chosen for production.
     
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  12. kirrbby

    kirrbby Well-Known Member

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    That, is a very good answer. It both corrected, and reestablished my understanding of how a stator "makes" power. For a minute there, I regressed to thinking it was magic again.
     
  13. allenp42

    allenp42 Well-Known Member

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    I have on a 6v and it's not pretty. Honestly I am surprised the battery last as long as it does. I have seen the voltage go as high as 8.5v depending on the stator and flywheel I was testing and if the lights were off. For sure, a 77 flywheel/stator combo is too much on a K0-76 setup where the key switch allows the HL to be turned off. I know that most states require lights on when ridden on the road, but for those that dink around in their yard, neighborhood or on the trails, high RPMs for any extended period of time is risky and rough on the battery.

    Not really. It takes a north and south pole inducing magnetisim into the armature to gen up the juice. As Bob stated, FWB just makes use of the available power vs. 1/2 wave which just makes use of 50% of what is available.

    In Rays situation, there is a N, S & N magnet providing the "input" thru 3 coils in series. Simplified, more input (more magnets, stronger magnets) is one factor that will give you more "output".
     
    #213 allenp42, Jan 29, 2020
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  14. racerx

    racerx Administrator
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    Nah...that's just what we tell the uncool people. Magic is how Teflon sticks to the pan.:ROFLMAO:

    I figured as much. The electrolyte boiled out of two leaker batteries before I went to sealed AGM...and it survived. Hence, the conclusion that it's a much more durable/forgiving design.
     
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  15. allenp42

    allenp42 Well-Known Member

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    It occurred to me that I left out a few details that would be important to the next person that travels down this road.

    Why do I prefer adding a 0.1 ohm resistor in series vs. using your DVM to measure the current? It's cheap, easier (my opinion), you can leave it in place until you want to take a reading. Does not hurt or degrade the performance of the stator, Rec/Reg or connected load. It is just too low a value to make a measurable impact.

    The 0.1 ohm resistor Ray is using has a tolerance of 2% and a power rating of 5 watts. The tolerance is not that critical, but I would not go above 5% (decent power resistors are just too cheap to go real cheap). In theory, this resistor can handle up to 7 amps, but would suggest staying below ~5 amps (60 watts). This is very debatable and not in stone. It will get a little warm so keep it away from the wiring, Rec/Reg, etc. just as a precaution. No problem to use a 0.1 ohm resistor with a higher wattage. Just de-rate them a bit if not bolted to the frame.

    The value you read on your DVM will need to be multiplied by 10, or just move the decimal place to the right by 1 digit. By this I mean a VDC voltage reading of 0.05 = .5 = 1/2 amp of current. A reading of 0.12, for example, = 1.2 equals = 1.2 amps of current.

    Which lead goes where on the resistor does not matter on the value you read but does matter on knowing when the stator/Rec/Reg ("system") is charging the battery (i.e.) stator producing more than need by the load. Refer to post 195 and the file Ammeter #2. You'll see a negative symbol in the display of your DVM when the battery is being discharged, such as when the engine is not running and the lights are on. I suggest you check this before you start the engine just in case you get it backwards. Hint - You won't be the first person to make this mistake.

    Charging may get confusing. As the battery charges up, you may see the voltage reading start to decrease, even to zero. But not for long. If the lights are still on, it will start to drain the battery and at a point, the Rec/Reg will start charging again. How long it takes to get the battery charged up to the setting of the Rec/Reg is a function of RPM, battery condition and how much load is "on". Same goes for discharging (after battery is fully charged) before it kicks back in. No experience with the TT150 (yet), so this paragraph is based on what I've seen with $10 Rec/Regs.

    Hope this helps. I'm sure that Ray has been in full overload for the last couple of hours, but feel sure he will have results to share.
     
    #215 allenp42, Jan 29, 2020
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  16. Deoodles

    Deoodles Well-Known Member

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    Last piece that is worth mentioning. I was working with Allen earlier this evening. He sent me some resistors for testing. Here are the results. I think they are pretty cool.

    Every light on, high beam, brake, and signal

    Motor off - 0.15v
    Motor on + 0.06v

    The reg is set at 12.8v and rpms don’t change anything.

    .15 = 1.5 amp x 12.8 volts = 19.2 watts. Consumption this is a neg # lights on motor off
    .06 = .6 amp x 12.8 volts = 7.68 watts. Charge, this is a pos # with lights on and motor running

    So, I’m using around 20 watts of my 45 watts and I’m charging even at idle. This was the last unknown for me. I wouldn’t have felt like this was done until I knew the system capacities
     
    #216 Deoodles, Jan 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
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  17. Deoodles

    Deoodles Well-Known Member

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    I haven’t really had a chance to head out into the country since I upgraded to full wave and LED. The weather has changed here and it’s now spring weather. Hopefully the last month of rain is over. Here is what the headlight delivers when there’s no streetlights around. it also keeps the battery fully charged while I’m out riding. I’m very happy with the results.
    25E07D51-A57E-4830-A64C-AAA5C2A52618.png
     
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  18. racerx

    racerx Administrator
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    As well you should be. Light output is several orders of magnitude better than original. That's enough to actually see where you're going...and be seen.

    BTW...that's a great photo.(y)
     
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