Adding a LED to an aftermarket large housing.
- Thread starter Deoodles
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I'm confused "AF" at the moment.
Sounds to me like this stator is grounded, and uses a 2 coil/1 coil split...with one array intended to power the HL (AC) the other used for the charging circuit, using a simple diode to get usable DC. Should be possible to series-wind all three, grounding one end of the windings, then feeding the AC output of all 3 coils to a diode. If I understand this correctly, this should give you 50% more DC charging output than using 2 coils only. Until such time as I find out if an odd number of coils can be used with a floating ground/full wave system, I don't know that it's even possible to use more than 2 of the three coils (floating the ground) for a full wave system. Here's a kicker...100% (well 98-99%) of the output of two coils, as DC, would provide more usable current than any half-wave/diode setup could.
Sounds to me like this stator is grounded, and uses a 2 coil/1 coil split...with one array intended to power the HL (AC) the other used for the charging circuit, using a simple diode to get usable DC. Should be possible to series-wind all three, grounding one end of the windings, then feeding the AC output of all 3 coils to a diode. If I understand this correctly, this should give you 50% more DC charging output than using 2 coils only. Until such time as I find out if an odd number of coils can be used with a floating ground/full wave system, I don't know that it's even possible to use more than 2 of the three coils (floating the ground) for a full wave system. Here's a kicker...100% (well 98-99%) of the output of two coils, as DC, would provide more usable current than any half-wave/diode setup could.
That's a little different than I had thought but, it makes sense. And, it's a way of getting more or less equal output from two outputs w/three coil armatures. Rather ingenious, imho, and similar to the K0-82 lighting coil.
One each: CW, CCW, not wound. No ground... two outputs each one feeding an input on the diode bridge reg/rec unit.
One each: CW, CCW, not wound. No ground... two outputs each one feeding an input on the diode bridge reg/rec unit.
Easy enough. Can you show me input and out to battery wiring. I assume it will be the trail tech. That means 50’ of wire. 25 on A ccw 25 on C ccw and B empty. One end white one yellow to feed the reg/rec and then??? Out to pos/neg on the battery? As in post 59? The last sentence in the picture is what has me confused
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This is my opinion as well. Going to "cypher" on the magnet arrangement for a bit just to make sure I understand the total package a bit better than I do now.
Never seen a bike where the negative side of the battery was not grounded. I remember reading the trail tech docs and they made it clear the stator could not be grounded, but never noticed anything about the DC side. Here's my opinion plain and simple - ignore it. As long long as the stator itself is isolated, the DC side does not matter. Just a WAG on my part, but maybe they prefer it to minimize the electrical noise, or a safety factor in case the stator does get grounded? Again, purely a guess on my part.
From a wiring perspective, using the frame of the bike or a solid conductor as the negative is the same....as long as the stator is isolated.
Nice drawing Ray, and glad you noted the direction of the windings.
Exactly as allenp42 said. The stator (lighting coil array) has no ground of its own, just two AC outputs, one from each end of the coil array...to feed the two rectifier inputs. The system ground is via the reg/rec unit body, which is bolted to the frame. This becomes a 12v, chassis ground, system...same as with cars and fullsize bikes.
FYI, the yellow w/red tr lead, shown in the diagram, is a 12v dc output, on a timer. I've never used that, never saw a need.
FYI, the yellow w/red tr lead, shown in the diagram, is a 12v dc output, on a timer. I've never used that, never saw a need.
Dumb question, perhaps, but why didn't you source that woodruff key domestically?
Here is my best guess on a few of the questions you and Bob have raised. Based on your magnet arrangement and the physical location of the stator coils, these 3 coils are basically the same as single coil but using 3 magnets vs. just 2. I don't know the strength of the magnets, but regardless using 3 magnets gives provides a little more "input", i.e.: "oomph" to the lighting.charging coil. It takes a north pole and south pole to gen up the juice. As originally wired, it is a single phase coil.
The magnets on the flywheel alternate between a north pole and south pole. So the the 2 possible magnet configurations are N - S - N and S - N - S. The reason coil B is wound is CW (vs. A & C CCW) is to keep the output in phase with the other 2 coils. It (coil B) is always facing an opposing pole magnet as compared to A & C no mater what.
The output frequency is the same as a standard K0 lighting/charging coil. 2 complete "cycles" per revolution of the crank.
Now could you go to 2 coils? Theoretically yes, but don't. Power will drop off drastically because magnet strength is lower and you have fewer windings.
Not sure you wanted to go this deep, not sure I did either, but it was bit cold cold and boring here today
Your electrical knowledge is well beyond mine. I have to keep the explanations on the basic side. To that end, I am thinking in terms of half-wave vs full wave. Simple diode rectification burns-up more than 50% of the alternator output as waste heat, while full-wave diode-bridge rectification appears to be ~98% efficient. Thus the question, in my mind, which gives you more usable DC output...less than half of the 3-coil output, or virtually all of 2-coil output. For the sake of discussion (and please do correct me if I'm wrong) let's say each coil produces 12W (a somewhat arbitrary and conservative value). (12 x 3) x .48 = 17W (12 x 2) x .98 = 23W On paper, that's roughly 30% more DC current from 2 coils, in a full wave configuration. Do you think that will translate to reality?
Technically, a single diode or 1/2 wave rectification does not increase the heat loss it's just not using the full capacity of the coil. Since a single diode only allows current to flow in one direction, with no current flow in the reverse direction, other than leakage, there is no power loss, or technically minimal power loss. Now there is some power loss (heat loss) in the diode but not a lot. Moving on, FWB is way more efficient because it uses both the positive and negative waveform which means the frequency of the pulses doubled, average voltage is higher...more efficient use of what's available. Put another way, a single diode (1/2 wave rectification) is leaving money on the table.
I actually tried this (FWB) on a standard OEM coil. Short answer - way too much voltage and current for the battery at RPMs greater than ~4000 (from memory). To go even further, on any FWB setup I've tried, 6v or 12v, it needed to be regulated. No one makes a 6v regulator...other than maybe a big honking regulator for a 1950's Ford Red Belly tractor.
"2 coils vs. 3 coils"? Assuming the coils are wound the same, then it comes down to number windings and magnet strength. Without a doubt, power availability will be less on 2 coils vs. 3. The more turns you have, the higher the voltage. But on the same token, the heat loss (power loss) in the windings goes up as well, to a point where the maximum available current you can get out of the stator at 12 volts. Ideally, you need enough wire in the coil (s) such that you can supply the load (i.e.: power the lights and start charging) at about 4000-5000 rpm and don't peak until 8000+.
Maybe this will help. A standard K0 lighting coil has ~150 turns on the yellow (lighting coil) and ~250 turns on the Green (DC). Just as an experiment, I tried reversing it. At about 7000-8000 RPM I got more power out of the yellow winding than I could out of the green winding. Wire size in both windings is the same. However, power loss in the coil (I squared R loss) was less (Y) due to lower losses in the copper winding.
When I wound my last 12v test coil, I put as many turns as possible and it still fit and clear the cam lobe. Worked great. Would supply the load at about 3000-3500 RPM. Looked good, but maxed out at about 30-35 watts. Removed about 50 turns, which pushed out suppling the load to somewhere between 4000-4500 and maxed out at 40+ watts at 8000 RPM.
By the way, I think I'm close to being able to answer your question on what is better - 3,4,5,6 and odd or even coils. I learn a lot by studying Ray's odd situation. I say odd because I can't find another stator anywhere like the one he has ( 3 coils and a 4 magnet flywheel). Another cold or rainy day when my honey do list is small, I think I'll know it well enough to explain it. The light is not on yet but it's starting to glow.
The question regarding number of coils is not about better or worse. All things the same, more coils have the advantage of higher current and frequency. But that, imho, is a non-issue here. Sure, more usable current would be nice to have but, I think we've already made peace with the practical limits as they are. The issue is whether an even number of CW & CCW wound coils are necessary to be compatible with a full-wave reg/rec unit...stated another way would an uneven number result in an input imbalance?
so I understand ccw vs cw and the magnets N and S. That means it would be better to wind all 3 Correct? The wire is here and I played around with winding. Have you any tips? I can’t see rolling out 75 feet then marking every 25 feet and winding the stator. The wire would start out in the road lol. Counting is possible but I would have to wind 25 feet to know then start again. Also, I am not suppose to add the short winding to A correct? This is just one 25 feet per coil with the beginning and end as my outputs?
sorry for the questions but. Would it be better if I use 2 coils ccw/cw and wind A and B instead of A and C. I am asking our subject matter expert for the best option to try first. I have plenty of wire for failures but only 1 TT-150
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Getting the wire length equal isn't as difficult as all that. If you only need 25 feet per coil, anchor the free end then walk 25 feet off the spool. Get an assistant to hold the wire, at the 25-foot mark, then walk the spool back to where you began...that's 2 coils worth. Repeat the process one more time, voila! 3 25-foot lengths in about 30 feet of linear space. At the 25 & 50-foot marks, give the wire a light crimp and mark it with tape, or a dab of paint...then it can be wound loosely back onto a spool, then identified as you wind your coils.
This is where I'm in over my head, too. Going wa-a-a-a-a-a-a-y out on a limb here, I'd say going A-CW + B-CCW (leaving C empty) would be the answer. The manufacturer wound A&C with the same rotation for a reason, which I believe has to do with phasing. Now, we wait to see if I've just stepped in something...or not
Going to answer this Q in another thread as to not hijack this one.
You can wind it just like it came off. As long as coils A & C are wound the same and coil B is wound the opposite direction, you'll be just fine. A & C CCW and B CW or A&C CW and B CCW. Makes no difference.
Yes, and wind all 3 coils. It was using 3 when you started and probably for a reason.
If you want to use that fiberglas sleeving that's on the way to you, will need to slide 2 pre-cut sections on first before you start winding IF you're trying to make it continuous run of wire with no solder joints. Just keep pulling the sections of sleeving toward you as wind each coil. It may be easier to wind each coil individually and then solder one to the other? No big deal either way. If you decide to go that route, I'll take a pic of how I splice magnet wire. which is basically a hook on each end, crimp, then solder. Solder A to B and B to C. The other ends of A & C go the Rec/Reg. Pre-tin the ends of course.
As you start winding, try to keep the windings as close together as possible. I just use my fingers and tension to do this. After a few layers, they may start to look a little funky. Just keep on trucking'. I have NEVER been able to achieve as nice a "finish layer" as I've seen on commercially wound coils.
Bob suggestion is a good one. You'll either need help for about 30 minutes, or rig up some sort of fixture so it takes effort to pull wire off the spool. Long bolt, large washer with a nut on each side and clamped in vise worked on the first few I did.
Be sure to leave a foot of wire or so at the end of Coil A & C so you can run it back to the plug or wiring from the plug.
Since the coils are in series, don't get too hung up trying to get exactly 25 ft/coil. A difference of a couple of inches between the coils is not going to matter. I take it that you did not count the turns? My guess is that you have about 75+ turns per coil. Purely a WAG on my part.