Another custom nice engine

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
It's ready for another shakedown if the weather holds. Unfortunately the HD Clutch springs I received in the mail are actually less strong than the springs I had in the bike. I'm going to have to come up with another solve for that one, but shouldn't prevent me for getting it out and giving a ride report.
 

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
I don't know which springs that you bought...but I have a Vesra set at home. I bought 2 sets and put one in my boy's 124. I could get some measurements of them for you if you're interested...compare to yours..?
The Vesras cured the slippage in the stock TRX 90/124 clutch...with used/worn discs.
 

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
What vesrah part number? I bought vs143 which are supposed to be heavy duty springs.

Ride report. Clutchs not slipping after adding two heavy springs i had as replacement for my 176cc nice.

However lesson learned. Never artificially change the chain tension system. It shaved all the teeth off the tension wheel under the stator and snapped the one in the cylinder. I found the cylinder one wedged up at the cam chain. I had to pull both covers and flush the motor to get all the bits out.

So I figured id have a better chance with using the nice gearing of 32/16. Pulling the crank gear while in the engine in the bike proved challenging but i did so by welding a sacrifice old gear to the one on the crank and was able to get my puller on it.

So after doing that and swappng in the gears and a 90t chain it worked out. No more chain slop and no more chatter.
 

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
I was certainly unhappy! It's all a little weird to be honest. This Yumanishi head is longer, and thus requires a different cam chain configuration. Even if you put the kit on directly, it's going to require a different length cam chain than if you used the stock head, all things being equal. They do not tell you this or provide any instructions with the kit. So now that I understand a little more about the differences, things will go more smoothly going forward with these kits. But I don't know what the exact length will need to be yet. I do know that the stock 90l cam chain will be too short.
 

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
Ok...here's a good update, finally! After all that work, getting the tensioner stuff sorted, I'm pleased to report that the motor ran flawlessly over the course of a 15 miles shake down ride. No cam chain slapping, no funny noises. It runs very smoothly at speed, and while I didn't go past 7500 on the rpms, it seems it will be fine at that engine speed. It has significantly more power than a stock honda nice engine.

With the super light and balanced rotating assembly, it is extremely smooth...nearly vibration free above 5krpm. However, the tradeoff to that light assembly is that you cannot lug the motor. If you get it under 4-4500 you have to downshift. You can get away with it in 1st and second gear, but not really in third or forth. It does power wheelie in first which is fun.

Im not impressed with the idle. you do need to set the idle to about 2000 rpm to keep that lightened setup going. and you most certainly are clutching it more on takeoff. Thats the tradeoff I suppose for really quick acceleration, much less engine braking, and improved throttle response all around. It can make things a little jerky until you are used to it.

I'm going to change the gearing by dropping the rear 1 tooth...it won't make a lot of difference but since I have a 32t sprocket and need to look into why the rear brakes are not donig their job, figured I'd swap it while i'm back there.

I'm VERY surprised it is not leaking anywhere at the head or at the base gasket. The nice does not use the o rings between the head/cylinder/cases but I did smear yamabond on the oil routes so very pleased with this outcome.

Right now there is only one issue, but I'm not sure if it's a real issue or not. But according to the thermometer dip stick, the engine is running quite a bit hotter than my other motors. The temp reached a steady state of 120c or 248f which is on the cusp of overheating. However, when I came back from the ride and hit it with the infrared gun, the engine was below 220f everywhere I shot it except right near the sparkplug which was 260. That doesn't seem too hot now does it?

It was a long road to get this motor built and dialed in but generally I'm pretty pleased with it. I will say that it runs very differently than the tractor style motor's i generally build and run and I'm still adjusting to it. However, it's nice to have something a little different to run. It won't be a bike of choice to run where I'd get into some traffic, but it would be pretty nice to get out on some back roads and twisties and rev this thing out. Looks like it will be a good engine to put through the paces.
 

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
Good stuff...as usual fatcaaat.
Every action has a reaction, and all of that. But it's sounds like it's doing...just what you planned/expected it would do..?
Weird that the oil temp was hotter than, most everywhere, on the exterior. Maybe worth trying another dipstick next time..? But either way, it should cool off some as it breaks in.
No leaks...did you do or add anything EXTRA for the crankcase breather?

Well I'm still interested in trying the Yuminashi 56mm kit. I'm going to have to talk myself into disassembling a perfectly good, and perfectly assembled stock Nice 110 to do it tho. Or source a core I suppose. Probably just tear down the engine that I got from uncle Jemima over on pm...$2000 engine, pipe, footbar and extras kit.
If I lighten it at all...I'll start small...maybe run it some and THEN lighten it a little...go from there.
I will definitely be asking for advice...and actually, some help from you when I start that project.
I'm excited...and hopeful that it will be a most excellent engine when it's done!
 

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
Good stuff...as usual fatcaaat.
Every action has a reaction, and all of that. But it's sounds like it's doing...just what you planned/expected it would do..?
Weird that the oil temp was hotter than, most everywhere, on the exterior. Maybe worth trying another dipstick next time..? But either way, it should cool off some as it breaks in.
No leaks...did you do or add anything EXTRA for the crankcase breather?

Well I'm still interested in trying the Yuminashi 56mm kit. I'm going to have to talk myself into disassembling a perfectly good, and perfectly assembled stock Nice 110 to do it tho. Or source a core I suppose. Probably just tear down the engine that I got from uncle Jemima over on pm...$2000 engine, pipe, footbar and extras kit.
If I lighten it at all...I'll start small...maybe run it some and THEN lighten it a little...go from there.
I will definitely be asking for advice...and actually, some help from you when I start that project.
I'm excited...and hopeful that it will be a most excellent engine when it's done!
If you're not planning on using those racerx made footpegs, I'd be interested in them...Bob made me 2 sets and I'd take more if I could get my hands on them. I could obviously make some but he did an excellent job on the design and manufacture of those.
 

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
Tragedy strikes! I knew the setup with that cam chain was tight...but I figured it would be oK...NOT! While riding down the road at about 50mph, the cam chain snapped. I was about 8 miles from home so a quick call to the wife and she arrived with "that" look. I knew as soon as it lost compression what had happened and luckily on taking the top end off there was no damage to anything...just a snapped cam chain.

I've decided that it's time to rethink my approach to this because I'm not going to be able to solve it the way I'm solving it. The cam chain situation using this combination of parts simply is right smack in the middle of needing a halflink cam chain, or some other arrangement. I'm tired of messing around with it, so I went ahead and dropped the money on the correct deck height piston from Kitaco which will put things back the way they need to be. this will then result in correct cam chain length back in the middle of not too tight or too loose. Given this change up, i'm going to put the gear change back to 28/14 and button things back up. Its hard to believe that a spacer under the cylinder would give you so much trouble, but there is a magic number I suppose of what you can and cannot get away with and this must be the special circumstance that just won't work.

I'll report back when it's back together...
 

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
Oh...the bad words!! Four letter, compound, spoken aloud, or kept within...lol.
But...reckon you were also counting your blessings at some point. You got lucky. Can't deny that.
A little MORE time...a little MORE money...you'll have it back together in short order. A lesser man might have to put that bike in the corner for a little cool down period. You just see it as a challenge...that you plan to win.

I DO know "that" look...lol.
A couple lines to remember for next time...
"Hey now...at least you don't have to fix it when we get home. Unlike every time I've had to rescue YOU. With a car, or lawn mower, or dang kitchen gadget. I just need a tow...I can do the rest myself."
 

Robert thran

Well-Known Member
I feel your extremely lucky,,,if it were me I’m sure it would have bent all 4 valves and knocked a hole in the top of the piston and jammed the chain around the crank destroying the case!! Lol
 

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
I got the new piston and worked everything out and low and behold i still have the same issue...now it's 86 link chain is too tight and cannot be attached and 88 link chain is too loose and slack cannot be corrected. I have now ordered a half link for it which will make it an 87t chain, and that should make things work correctly.
 

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
The hits keep rolling. With the halflink the length is perfect but now the timing marks won’t line up. Either i have to redrill holes in the cam gear, slot them. Or take the gear off the crank and reclock it. The gear cannot be removed whike crank is in engine unless you sacrifice the gear. Unless people have an idea. Reclocking is the most straight forward solve.
 

cjpayne

Well-Known Member
The hits keep rolling. With the halflink the length is perfect but now the timing marks won’t line up. Either i have to redrill holes in the cam gear, slot them. Or take the gear off the crank and reclock it. The gear cannot be removed whike crank is in engine unless you sacrifice the gear. Unless people have an idea. Reclocking is the most straight forward solve.
I'm not very knowledgeable about the 110's, but was wondering if the timing tensioner gear could be changed out with a larger diameter one. That way you could go with the 88T and keep your timing(???).
 

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
I'm not very knowledgeable about the 110's, but was wondering if the timing tensioner gear could be changed out with a larger diameter one. That way you could go with the 88T and keep your timing(???).
Unfortunately no. I've tried every combo and approach imaginable. I ended up destroying several cam rollers in the process. I'm a bit concerned about the head/kit to be honest at this point. Not from a quality perspective, but more from just a fitment perspective. The head is different for sure, and the distance from the cam centerline to the head gasket surface is different (longer)than stock head configurations. I am starting to believe that this distance is going to be problematic on this kit, regardless of the setup. I already know that a 90l cam chain will not work on a stock configuration. But I don't think a 92 will work either. SO then you go to a 94 and i'm thinking same issue...now it's too long. Who knows....I'll report on that when the next engine core arrives and I bolt one on top of it.

I think that I did find a tool that will allow me to remove the cam gear while still in the motor. This is a simple fix with the right tool...instead of clocking the gear with an open space to the flywheel key, you clock the gear to a tooth to the flywheel key and voila, this issue is corrected.
 

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
Alright an update for you all. Lots of work, rethinking, adjusting, tweaking, but the motor is now up and running, appears to have great power, not making any funny noises and there is no longer any fairy dust or bits in the oil. FInally! Here's how it all went down.

I found a puller that allowed me to remove the cam gear off the crank without taking things apart or welding something and sacraficing the gear. So that's a good thing. I ended up, as expected with an 87t chain, comprised of a master and a halflink. Am I happy about that? No. But this size chain is the same size chain that runs starters, large bikes, and even serves as the running chain for many scooters...i have to think that it shouldn't be a problem in this motor but time will tell.

The cheap chinese engine studs stretched when I put 14lbs on them over and over and over again. So much so, that one of them snapped. I suppose that's a repeated stress issue. I ditched them and put real TRX90 studs on them and just holding the two in your hand you can tell the difference right away. To get the timing right, I clocked the crank sprocket to the tooth instead of the space when installing it and it resulted in the dot on the cam gear being perfect. I also decided to use a slightly thicker head gasket from .25mm to .50mm. Also, I am not using the piston that cam matched to the head because that required me to stack spacer under the cylinder. I am now using the piston that came with the cylinder and crank combo and it requires no spacers or anything funny. The profile of the kitaco piston looked much better than the one the head came with anyway, so no loss there.

Everything seems to be working correctly now except my 12v DC power. I must have knocked something loose along the way but i only have AC lights and lost everything that was DC related. Should be an easy enough fix so not particularly concerned.

I'm not yet ready to make a call on what I think of this whole kit. Part of the issues were related to the major customization I did to the bottom end to begin with, but I'm still thinking that even if I put this on an otherwise stock Honda Nice bottom end, there are going to be issues with the cam chain length that will need to be corrected using a halflink and reclocking the gear on the crank. Not a hard thing to do, but knowing that it needs to be done was a world of discovery through trial and error.

THe plan is to put the other kit on an otherwise all stock motor. Alternatively, I have been considering putting it on top of a honda SL70 at 95cc and make it a screamer. I haven't decided the right course of action yet.
 

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
Another update: I got the opportunity to take it out late last night...so instead of running my normal 20 mile loop course, I ran it straight up and down the parkway for 15 total miles. I had the speed largely between 50-55mph with a few blips faster. Some observations.

50-55 seems to be the sweet spot. 55mph is about 7400 rpm. On this motor, setup the way it is, that should not be a problem at all. As a matter of fact it is vibration free above 4500...yes, this for sure is the smoothest motor I have, the result of a lot of time and effort balancing the rotating assembly parts and the assembled unit. I suppose that the heavy duty handlebars also might help but there is no vibration in the feet, bars, or anywhere once above 4500 rpm.

Powerwise, it definitely has more power and snaps to attention faster than a stock Nice 110 and faster than a BBK to 127cc. However, I don't think it is more powerful than the 127cc 4v+r takegawa setup..i'd say it's about the same but the acceleration at every speed is faster simply because the rotating assembly is so much lighter.

It's pretty thirsty. I don't think that having those enormous intake and exhaust tracks are all that efficient. This is the first CT70 i've ever built that I've experienced fueling issues, as in, if you run it hard for about a minute, more fuel is consumed than can refill the carb, and then it bucks until you leave off it. This only happens when you run it WOT...after about a minute. I only did that as part of the ring seat procedure, and never run my motors that way anyway. So it should not be an issue. I'll do more measured and calculated MPG calculations and see what happens once i take it out for a good long ride.

DC power issue turned out to be a disconnected white wire from stator to harness. Easy to find and fix that one, so now power is back on.

What has surprised me is that given the lightened assembly, you need to idle it at about 2k. I was hoping that would not be the case, but if you turn it down to say 1500, it will periodically stall. So i'm putting it at 2k to avoid that. I am also surprised that I do not need to clutch it off the line as much as expected. Many years ago I had a fully built takegawa 124 with special clutch that really needed clutching off the line and figured i'd be the same here. Happy that it seems easier on the clutch than that motor was. It's not like a stock nice or any of the other ones I have with heavier rotating assemblies but pleasantly surprised here.

The Mikuni VM26 I have on it is jetted 22.5/190...that is also very surprising to me, and was actually the jetting that came in the carb stock. I started with 25/165 based on other setups. I should have just looked at my notes because that takegawa motor was jetted 22.5/195 with a vm26 and I could have saved some time there.

Last point with this motor...the exhaust is definitely restricting it. I'm running a home made pipe that runs .875 ID transition to a 1.25 ID mini reverse cone. The pipe itself is awesome, but more suited for a 106cc or smaller setup. I don't have a 1.25" bender die but perhaps it's time to get one and then I can make full blown supertrapp replica pipes.
 

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
I need to read thru this entire thread again...kinda try to think thru it all in it's entirety. A LOT has transpired, and I've followed, but need to put it all together again.
Good stuff tho. Sounds like you are really close now.
 

Robert thran

Well-Known Member
Hey fatcaaat,,,just woundering where you can get a half link for a chain that small? The motor sounds awesome!! Great work and engineering….
 
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