Honda CT70HKO or Honda CL70 very strange ID problem
- Thread starter Anderz
- Start date
JPct70
Member
yeah im puzzled. is says 1970 build date so early production would not explain it. maybe somebody stamped it to match a clear vin or an assembly mistake...a mystery
Which may very well cause it to become a JEWEL...:39::13::41::43:
scooter
Well-Known Member
Did a little research on the CL70. The K1 model had a frame VIN of 200001 to 214061 and would have been produced in 1970 which matches up with the the production time frame of a CT70H K0. The CT70H K0 were six digits but started with 1xxxxx. My ct70HK0 is 142045 and was manufactured in 11_70 and the production would have never made it to 2xxxxx. If the production numbers for the CL70 that I found are accurate and they produced 14,061 then your frame 3906 is about 28% into the production run which makes it seem reasonable that the date is accurate. It looks like you have a jewel - my guess would be that this was the first one down the line after a switch over from CL70s to CT70s and they forgot to switch over the stamping equipment. Wonder how many got through.
Anderz
Member
The frame is currently not mine and its still in US at this point.
I do think it somehow got from the factory and your theory seems to be very good.
My trouble will be in getting a title after rebuild.
Naturally build it as a HKO but what do you say when you got CL70 serials stamped on the frame?
It does not match a CL70 in specs that the title people will want to see.
I do think it somehow got from the factory and your theory seems to be very good.
My trouble will be in getting a title after rebuild.
Naturally build it as a HKO but what do you say when you got CL70 serials stamped on the frame?
It does not match a CL70 in specs that the title people will want to see.
OakBehringer
Member
I don't know how titling works wherever it is that you are, but I don't see how this could ever be a problem in the US. Build it as a CT70. Title it as a CL70. It says its a CL on the tag, the tag is original, the VIN on the tag matches the frame. In the eyes of the law, this is a totally legit CL70 with smaller factory-optioned tires. This isn't even shady, it's 100% true.
Anderz
Member
The steps to title is the same in the whole country.
First you request them to title the bike.
Then they send a date and time.
You go with the bike to the techs that gives the ok for street use. If the bike is unfit it will be disqualified.
Then you go and get your plate but if the bike is imported you will be taxed for that.
Those are the basic steps.
I do agree that it should be titled as a CL70 but the main weight would be different to the bike. The total weight is important to the techs.
I will try to ask seller about the motor as he has mentioned its stuck. What serial is on that one?
First you request them to title the bike.
Then they send a date and time.
You go with the bike to the techs that gives the ok for street use. If the bike is unfit it will be disqualified.
Then you go and get your plate but if the bike is imported you will be taxed for that.
Those are the basic steps.
I do agree that it should be titled as a CL70 but the main weight would be different to the bike. The total weight is important to the techs.
I will try to ask seller about the motor as he has mentioned its stuck. What serial is on that one?
OakBehringer
Member
Well, it can't be illegal to make changes on your bike. So this CL70 has smaller tires now. And different handlebars. None of this makes it street-illegal.
You're our resident expert on Danish law. However, I've spoken with a number of riders in other EU countries, and the UK. The common thread is that vintage/antique vehicles are usually given a fairly lax standard when it comes to compliance and a 40 year old bike is more than old enough to qualify. I wouldn't expect to find many experts on these bikes working for a unit of government anyplace outside of Japan. The bikes were relatively rare in your part of the world. However, playing devil's advocate, assuming that you have to deal with an "expert" (whatever that actually means at inspection time), that individual should be able to determine that both the VIN tag & matching number stamped into the frame are original from Honda. Having the bike inspected in its raw, unrestored, state might also help you present your case effectively. It could be reasonably argued that no one would bother to take all the trouble of creating a fake VIN on what appears to be a rusty 4-decade old piece of junk, that's worth less than 80EUR and very likely cost more than that to have shipped.
The VIN tag digits will be stamped from the reverse side and thus raised, unlike anything a shadetree mechanic could do with a die set or even a trophy shop for that matter. VIN tags found on US-spec bikes of this vintage clearly state "THIS VEHICLE CONFORMS TO ALL APPLICABLE U.S. FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE STANDARDS IN EFFECT ON THE DATE OF MANUFACTURE SHOWN ABOVE:" Combine that with the original drive screws (the rivets holding the tag in place) showing years of rust patina and clearly unmolested since day one and your argument becomes quite convincing, especially since it's the truth. If you are legally allowed to import US-spec bikes of this vintage in the first place, that should give you some negotiating room, if you need it. I mean, what is the likelihood that anyone you'll have to deal with could be an expert on US market models that are probably older than he, or she, is?
But then, I do realize that this is all conjecture on my part, I could be dead wrong.
The VIN tag digits will be stamped from the reverse side and thus raised, unlike anything a shadetree mechanic could do with a die set or even a trophy shop for that matter. VIN tags found on US-spec bikes of this vintage clearly state "THIS VEHICLE CONFORMS TO ALL APPLICABLE U.S. FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE STANDARDS IN EFFECT ON THE DATE OF MANUFACTURE SHOWN ABOVE:" Combine that with the original drive screws (the rivets holding the tag in place) showing years of rust patina and clearly unmolested since day one and your argument becomes quite convincing, especially since it's the truth. If you are legally allowed to import US-spec bikes of this vintage in the first place, that should give you some negotiating room, if you need it. I mean, what is the likelihood that anyone you'll have to deal with could be an expert on US market models that are probably older than he, or she, is?
But then, I do realize that this is all conjecture on my part, I could be dead wrong.
Anderz
Member
Maybe it is just me finding the whole thing weird as we all know what the serial should be like.
This frame comes from a seller who has alot of parts and CT70's that is parted out or sold as a whole.
The frame is the last emerald green HKO he currently has and he said he only discovered this misprint as I asked for the VIN.
I do not see any reason not to belive its real from Honda as CT70's get mostly taken apart and are not worth much in a rebuild/junk state anyway. Also the serial looks very much original and the ID tag confirms it.
It does look better than my current BG project so I think I'm going further with getting this one.
This frame comes from a seller who has alot of parts and CT70's that is parted out or sold as a whole.
The frame is the last emerald green HKO he currently has and he said he only discovered this misprint as I asked for the VIN.
I do not see any reason not to belive its real from Honda as CT70's get mostly taken apart and are not worth much in a rebuild/junk state anyway. Also the serial looks very much original and the ID tag confirms it.
It does look better than my current BG project so I think I'm going further with getting this one.
What you're suggesting is certainly possible. It just seems highly unlikely when you consider the whole picture. I mean matching VIN & frame stamping, both of which appear to be 40 year old originals and what appears to be OEM Candy Emerald Green, right down to the fading & "tan lines". Seems like an awful lot of work to perform on a non-collectible bike. It took years for this much paint fade to occur and these were just unwanted, used, bikes until the late `90s. 2/70 D.O.M. and that VIN are correct for a CL70K1, which was released for sale in March of 1970. While the CT70HK0 wasn't officially released until July of that year. Could have been a pre-production model handed out to dealers or magazines for promotional purposes. I own 2 early Daxes that have no VINs. So, it's conceivable that a few pre-production CT70s went out sans VINs and someone "recycled" a VIN tag from an early CL70K1. It still seems one helluva coincidence that the VIN tag would be from early 1970 and end up on what appears to be an original CEG frame. Two other possible clues to investigate: that looks like a US military base sticker on the fork; and, if those rear reflectors are screwed into threaded bosses, then this bike really is unique. Those threaded bosses were not added to these locations on CT70 frames until the K2 (1973) model.
