Just noticed that CHP now has handle bars for the K1-K2. They look nice!
https://www.chpmotorsports.com/shop/chassis/handel-bar-set-ct70-k1-k3/
https://www.chpmotorsports.com/shop/chassis/handel-bar-set-ct70-k1-k3/
K1-K2 Handle Bars from CHP
- Thread starter allenp42
- Start date
AFAIK, K0-early K3 should all be the same. It's the bar clamps that alter the grip width, due to the latter type having "reclocked" the locking tabs. That said, there have been an indeterminate number of handlebar lots produced since 1969 and we'll never know how many different OE vendors may have been used. Without CNC equipment, those handlebars are incredibly complicated in terms of perfect replication...from, ostensibly, the same mechanical drawings. Nowadays, precision replication would be easy, once a baseline is established. From memory, most K0s had ~20" of grip with...plus or minus an inch. Doesn't sound like much but, it really is to the discriminating rider. The later models K4-`78 were very different, all the way around...with grip width pretty consistent at ~24". If you ever have the opportunity to view these different iterations, head-on, using two different bikes, you'll see how the overall shapes differ. There's more than one way to achieve the same overall grip width. All of that having been said, it comes down to choosing which set you like best. There's not even a reliable standard for the concours-purist crowd, only good educated guesses.
kawahonda
Active Member
Thanks. According to Racerx, I probably should just keep with my K0 bars since I shouldn't expect the K1-K2 bars to be any different in feel. CHP's description pretty much says that, that only the perches differ. Sorry Placek! I see that the CHP K0 bars are out of stock. Have they been that way for awhile?
Your memory is good. A few days ago I took a few measurements from a K4-78 NOS set. Tip to Tip measured 26". I have measured 2 other sets, not NOS of course, and one was 25" and another at 25 1/2". If I stared at the used sets long enough, I could tell that the left was tweaked a bit on one set and the right on the other. When you have to stare at a set and look at them from several angles to tell if they're straight or not, I say they're good enough.
kirrbby
Well-Known Member
I believe the perches are the same between K0 and K1 bars. It's the clocking of the two tapered...locating/locking gadgets that are different. And I think those gadgets are what CHP mentions.
If you look straight on, from the front or back of your bike...K0 bars rise up almost parallel to one another...plumb.
K0 bars angle out slightly, making them wider at the grips, and, IMO, more comfortable to ride, feel more stable...in control, and more better looking to me.
K0 and K1 bars aren't very different, but they ARE very different.
26" wide grip on K4-78, is the shix, fo shizzle.
The perch angle on K0 and K1 sux.
Perch angle on K2-K3 is way more better...and works with mirror mounts drilled and tapped.
If you drill and tap k0-1 perches and mount mirrors, you can't hardly even bend the mirror stems to get the mirrors high and wide enough...even with a short narrow body and pointed head like mine.
My memory isn't perfect. All the above commentary persuaded me to break out the measuring tape, for some fresh measurements.
K0-K2 (NOS Honda) measured 21" in a K0 clamp, just shy of 22.5" in K1-78 clamp. CHP reproduction, from an earlier batch, were virtually dead-on. A straight-but-rusty setup, taken from a `78 measured 25". The widest set I've yet seen, firsthand, are on my daily rider...~28", at the outside edges of the grips, which matches the 27" figure I remember.
K0 & K1 bars have the same PN. For some reason(s) K2s are vanishingly rare: I've seen more K3s, in both the early (twin perch) and later (RH lever, LH mirror mount only) flavors. That's too small of a sample upon which to base any kind of comparison.
I agree completely, wider bars, up to a point, are more comfortable and improve stability. It's possible to widen any set...with a fair bit of precision cutting, followed by welding and a fair bit of skillful metalfinishing. But, there are two limiting factors. The one that's gonna stop most builders in their tracks is the cost of chrome. The other is being able to actually fold the bars. You can only go so far outboard, before the ends will make contact when folded down. With an engine guard and/or oil cooler that can be an issue. As for getting a usable rearview mirror, it goes almost without saying that the mirror(s) must be outboard of the grip end(s). Otherwise, the rider will be at least a partial obstruction. Best solution I've found, in practical terms, is a bar-end mirror; that's self-adapting.
K0-K2 (NOS Honda) measured 21" in a K0 clamp, just shy of 22.5" in K1-78 clamp. CHP reproduction, from an earlier batch, were virtually dead-on. A straight-but-rusty setup, taken from a `78 measured 25". The widest set I've yet seen, firsthand, are on my daily rider...~28", at the outside edges of the grips, which matches the 27" figure I remember.
K0 & K1 bars have the same PN. For some reason(s) K2s are vanishingly rare: I've seen more K3s, in both the early (twin perch) and later (RH lever, LH mirror mount only) flavors. That's too small of a sample upon which to base any kind of comparison.
I agree completely, wider bars, up to a point, are more comfortable and improve stability. It's possible to widen any set...with a fair bit of precision cutting, followed by welding and a fair bit of skillful metalfinishing. But, there are two limiting factors. The one that's gonna stop most builders in their tracks is the cost of chrome. The other is being able to actually fold the bars. You can only go so far outboard, before the ends will make contact when folded down. With an engine guard and/or oil cooler that can be an issue. As for getting a usable rearview mirror, it goes almost without saying that the mirror(s) must be outboard of the grip end(s). Otherwise, the rider will be at least a partial obstruction. Best solution I've found, in practical terms, is a bar-end mirror; that's self-adapting.
kirrbby
Well-Known Member
IDK racerx. I think there may be more differences than you think. I'm quite sure there are different part numbers for K0-k1-k2, and 2 versions of k3's.
Each model is different than the next, up until the K4-78 run.
Allen and I have been discussing bars quite a bit lately, and comparing different parts.
I looked for a long time for a set of nos K1 bars. During that time, I sold a set of nos K0 bars. I think chp's K0 repops are a VERY good match for Honda K0's...but cannot replace any other model/version.
Each model is different than the next, up until the K4-78 run.
Allen and I have been discussing bars quite a bit lately, and comparing different parts.
I looked for a long time for a set of nos K1 bars. During that time, I sold a set of nos K0 bars. I think chp's K0 repops are a VERY good match for Honda K0's...but cannot replace any other model/version.
airblazer
Active Member
Can you fold your bars down without them touching? And do you think they would hit a brush guard if you still had an NOS one installed?
Interesting...
That raises an overarching question. Since it is possible to replicate, or repair, any mechanical part ever made this boils down to how much are owners willing to spend?
I seriously doubt there's more than a handful of restorers who'd be willing to spend well north of $300 on a pair of handlebars. There are big implications in this. If anyone one cares to dig-into this topic further, I'm game. Otherwise, it's probably better that I step aside, as I expect that the overwhelming majority will be satisfied to go with CHP, or DRatv bars and call it "good enough".
That raises an overarching question. Since it is possible to replicate, or repair, any mechanical part ever made this boils down to how much are owners willing to spend?
I seriously doubt there's more than a handful of restorers who'd be willing to spend well north of $300 on a pair of handlebars. There are big implications in this. If anyone one cares to dig-into this topic further, I'm game. Otherwise, it's probably better that I step aside, as I expect that the overwhelming majority will be satisfied to go with CHP, or DRatv bars and call it "good enough".
Well, here's what I know but it does not answer the question definitively. Here are a few pics and notes from when I compared 3 NOS bars (right only).
From left to right:
* The K0 bar is obvious in the pic. It came w/o a bag or tag so I don't which of the 2 p/n's it belongs to
* The middle bar is 53110-098-951
* The right bar is 53110-098-954
"-951" and "-954" had the same bends, bend angles, looked the same when mounted in a K4 mount ....excluding the fact that -951 had a lever perch etc. I was just comparing the bends and the dimensions.
I thought that K1 and K2 were the same until Kirby schooled me a few weeks ago.
From left to right:
* The K0 bar is obvious in the pic. It came w/o a bag or tag so I don't which of the 2 p/n's it belongs to
* The middle bar is 53110-098-951
* The right bar is 53110-098-954
"-951" and "-954" had the same bends, bend angles, looked the same when mounted in a K4 mount ....excluding the fact that -951 had a lever perch etc. I was just comparing the bends and the dimensions.
I thought that K1 and K2 were the same until Kirby schooled me a few weeks ago.
Attachments
The "other" issue is the fact that there's zero documentation of how the bars varied from one production lot (batch) to another. There's no question that the tooling varied. There may have been multiple vendors used or/and tooling can and does wear out, break, get damaged/lost. I give you major props for the forensic work on this. 20 years ago, NOS parts were a lot easier to find...and compare. The variations I saw at that time, between still-in-the-wrapper NOS, new OER and those on known, one-owner, bikes were more than sufficient to trigger the "WTF" light in my mind. That's why I've said, repeatedly & consistently, that the "best" approach is to source bars in L-to-R matched sets...unless there's some motivation to go beyond that, something that I can well appreciate. IMHO, this topic is similar to the K0 running changes; look at all the little details that were altered from the first silver tag bikes to the end of the model in 1971. I think that there will be some very good, logical, conclusions reached. That said, would you be willing to "bet the farm" on the hard data available? Consider what we accept as a "numbers matching" engine...
kirrbby
Well-Known Member
Well I'm good with SOME of that.
First, I don't think there is such a thing as "K1/K2" bars...unless yo count CHP's K1/K2 bars.
Honda made K0 bars.
They made K1 bars.
And, they made K2 bars.
But they didn't use any bar on both K0 and K1.
Or K1 and K2.
K2 and K3 etc.
K0 and K1 have different bends.
They are clocked differently where they mount up in the triple top clamp.
AND, and, and, the angle of the perch is different. Beginning with the K2 bars, the perch angle changed. The perch angle on K2 bars... the angle of the brake lever perch...is NOT the same as the brake lever perch angle on K0 and K1 CT70 handlebars.
Plus... and, K2 bars came with different switches installed on them. The K2 CT70 came with the same switches that are on K3 CT70's. Because of that, the right side K2 bar has holes that are for mounting the k3 (and K2) type switches.
I have some bars, and some info that I'd like to share, but no time to do it right now. I've been FORCED...lol, to put my minibikes in the corner and work on some home improvements.
It would surely take up a couple days of my after-work "free time" to do a half ass job of TRYING the show and describe the differences between different model handlebars. It would take a week if I were to try to provide measurements and such.
But I'm with racerx on the fact that genuine Honda handlebars are soo scarce, and soo varied, and so few people are willing to jump thru the hoops, even if we could hash it all out...decide what is actually "correct" for every bike...most folks won't care enough to even look.
CHP bars have become widely accepted. I think in the future, THEY may become the standard.
THEN, there WILL be such a thing as K1/K2 bars.