New 125 Sputters through all throttle/idle

So I've gotten my 125 just about to the 20mile break in stage and it is slow to warm up and sputters at idle as well as through pretty much all throttle levels from what I can tell. I can feel the bike jumping on the higher end.

Is this a jetting issue? I am running it bone stock as it came with the carb kit. I can't seem to get my air/fuel mix screw to make any difference and I'm sure I am to the point where it is all out of whack but it still runs the same, just sputtering. I would describe it somewhat like you would expect a governed engine to surge at idle then it just cuts in and out a bit through throttle.

Any tips?
 

twebb10

New Member
Buy a Mikuni vm22, I 125cc Lifan swapped my mini and I cant believe how smooth it runs. Even with the incorrect jetting it fired on the second kick for its first start up. I bought a jet kit for it but found it only came with main jets not the idle jets. From the manufacture it comes jetted with a 30 and 100. I currently run 30 and 125 but still have a lot of carb tuning to do. Quit messing with the junk carb and buy one, it will be the best investment you made for your new engine. I bought my whole set up from amazon for roughly $75.00.
 
Buy a Mikuni vm22, I 125cc Lifan swapped my mini and I cant believe how smooth it runs. Even with the incorrect jetting it fired on the second kick for its first start up. I bought a jet kit for it but found it only came with main jets not the idle jets. From the manufacture it comes jetted with a 30 and 100. I currently run 30 and 125 but still have a lot of carb tuning to do. Quit messing with the junk carb and buy one, it will be the best investment you made for your new engine. I bought my whole set up from amazon for roughly $75.00.

Thanks for the input! I would love to hear what jet sizes you use when you get it dialed in and rough elevation you are at.
 

twebb10

New Member
From the research that I have done everyone recommends 17.5 idle jet and somewhere between 125-140 main jet. I hope one of the professionals here steps in as I may be wrong. Im going to try that set up first. Top end seems to run really well bottom end I know is heavy on the fuel. The bike shows all the signs. I believe my jet kit only goes up to 125 so I may need to find another. Also I am running a pod filter and stock CT70 exhaust. The exhaust set up is temporary as I am still looking to have a custom exhaust made. I know I will be rejetting once I have my final set up. Elevation is 1400ft in the Oregon mountains!
 

twebb10

New Member
I am posting the links to the ones I bought. I believe the carb is a genuine Mikuni because the seller listed on amazon is Mikuni... I could be wrong, and am no expert on Mikuni carbs so for all I know it could be a knock off. Either way I am extremely happy with both I bought. One is on my bike the other is on a friends(also extremely satisfied).

https://www.amazon.com/Mikuni-Round...4722&s=gateway&sprefix=mikuni+,aps,198&sr=8-4

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017SJO94S/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
I am posting the links to the ones I bought. I believe the carb is a genuine Mikuni because the seller listed on amazon is Mikuni... I could be wrong, and am no expert on Mikuni carbs so for all I know it could be a knock off. Either way I am extremely happy with both I bought. One is on my bike the other is on a friends(also extremely satisfied).

https://www.amazon.com/Mikuni-Round-Slide-Carburetor-VM22-133/dp/B003CK3IJK/ref=sr_1_4?crid=20RMZ3914YKP3&keywords=mikuni+vm22&qid=1560964722&s=gateway&sprefix=mikuni+,aps,198&sr=8-4

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017SJO94S/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

IDK what carb that is, the jets are even more mysterious. A real VM22-133 carb has the bowl drain/main jet holder located at the rear edge of the float bowl, parallel to the venturi. It also takes the hexagonal main jets, same as the VM20 & VM26. The carb pictured looks to be a Chinese knockoff...and the jets, wtf?

Personally, I'd contact the vendor from whom you bought the engine & carb. Unless something is damaged, or you have a massive vacuum leak, the supplied carb should work reasonably well.

If you do decide to go for a genuine Mikuni carb, go for a VM20, and start with a #150 main/#20 pilot jet. The VM22 won't give you any more power but, it will be much harder to dial-in. FYI, the carbs I've seen included with L110/125 motors are usually 18mm, true size.
 

twebb10

New Member
IDK what carb that is, the jets are even more mysterious. A real VM22-133 carb has the bowl drain/main jet holder located at the rear edge of the float bowl, parallel to the venturi. It also takes the hexagonal main jets, same as the VM20 & VM26. The carb pictured looks to be a Chinese knockoff...and the jets, wtf?

Personally, I'd contact the vendor from whom you bought the engine & carb. Unless something is damaged, or you have a massive vacuum leak, the supplied carb should work reasonably well.

If you do decide to go for a genuine Mikuni carb, go for a VM20, and start with a #150 main/#20 pilot jet. The VM22 won't give you any more power but, it will be much harder to dial-in. FYI, the carbs I've seen included with L110/125 motors are usually 18mm, true size.

racerx, I forgot to mention they have the wrong stock photo. The carb you described sounds like mine. I will post pictures later. What jets should i start at for the VM22?
 

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69ST

Well-Known Member
I'd order #140, 150 & 160 mains, #20 & 22.5 pilot. One of those pilot jets will be on the money. The mains are harder to guess, especially with a VM22, because the amount of vacuum (a.k.a. "pullover effect") can vary greatly, from one engine to the next. Best guess, a garden-variety L125 motor makes around 8hp. A VM22 can easily flow enough to support ~17-18hp, VM20 ~15hp. The 125cc displacement is close to the ragged edge for a VM22; you'll have no problem dialing-in the idle mixture but, the off-idle-to 1/4 throttle range is too unpredictable to make an accurate guess, without some specific experience. There are different flavors of L125/110 motors, thus it's all but guaranteed that jetting/tuning will require some trial and error. You could end up needing a #130 main, or a #170; this way, at least, you'll be close enough to limit any further guessing/testing. But...there's always that exception which proves the rule, i.e. needing a main jet that's either smaller than #130 or larger than #170. Seriously, I've installed VM22 carbs on highly-tuned (14-16hp) 125cc tunes...that ended up in the #200-220 range; there's that much variation, at WOT/peak power. I'm guessing that your L125 makes peak hp in the 6500-7500rpm range and runs out of breath in the low-to-mid 8000s; this corresponds with the expected peak hp number.

It's your machine, so the call is strictly yours alone to make. That said, I'd consider the aforementioned lifan motor, from a tuning/jetting perspective, the same as a 110. For that reason, I'd choose the VM20. Applying Boyle's law, that ~20% reduction in venturi size (cross-sectional area) will result in 20% increased airflow velocity. That will make the fuel circuits more efficient, improve atomization and deliver superior throttle response + mpg...better efficiency, all-around. That said, I'm still running a VM22 on my daily rider (110cc Honda power)...after 16 years. It starts easily, idles fairly well, but it's not perfect and never will be. I've settled for 95% "perfect" and roughly 15mpg less than the engine/bike combo should deliver. One final caveat...and this may not apply with those extra 15cc displacement...I had to re-profile the jet needle, working 0.0005" at a time, to minimize a light-throttle transient lean spot (stumble at low rpm, off-idle). I've been tuning carburetors for 50 years and I consider this kind of modification the closest thing to a black art.
 
IDK what carb that is, the jets are even more mysterious. A real VM22-133 carb has the bowl drain/main jet holder located at the rear edge of the float bowl, parallel to the venturi. It also takes the hexagonal main jets, same as the VM20 & VM26. The carb pictured looks to be a Chinese knockoff...and the jets, wtf?

Personally, I'd contact the vendor from whom you bought the engine & carb. Unless something is damaged, or you have a massive vacuum leak, the supplied carb should work reasonably well.

If you do decide to go for a genuine Mikuni carb, go for a VM20, and start with a #150 main/#20 pilot jet. The VM22 won't give you any more power but, it will be much harder to dial-in. FYI, the carbs I've seen included with L110/125 motors are usually 18mm, true size.

I would describe my bike to be running fairly well, excluding the sputtering. How would I know/check if I had a vacuum leak? I'm not sure what I should request of the seller at this point.
 

twebb10

New Member
Here are the pictures as promised. Like I said earlier, I ordered two carbs both are identical. This is the carb that came from the amazon link.
IMG-2672.JPG
IMG-2672.JPG
IMG-2670.JPG
IMG-2673.JPG
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
That does, indeed, look to be a real Mikuni VM22-133 carb. No point in second-guessing my jetting suggestions, unless you've seen this carb/intake/air filter combo on another L125 that is exactly the same as yours. Even then, you could end up finding as much as a 2 main jet size difference between them. You've gotta begin somewhere, figure out whether the carb needs to be jetted richer, or leaner, than is possible with those suggested mains and proceed from there.

Jet needle height has a huge impact on performance, so my first suggestion would be to start with the c-clip in the middle groove. If the engine runs lean, reposition the c-clip to the bottom groove, too rich, the top groove, then retest. If the mixture is still too rich with the leanest setting (jet needle c-clip in the top groove) drop down one jet size and repeat the process. If it's too lean, repeat the process but go up one jet size.

FYI, the sealing washer on the float bowl will either be dead-soft aluminum, or dead-soft aluminum with a polymer gasket. Be very gentle when tightening the jet holder. That washer can be ruined very easily...just a slight bit of excessive tightening torque and it'll never seal again. With care, the washer will last nearly forever and survive many R&Rs.
 

twebb10

New Member
Great tips racerx. I was really hoping an expert would step in on this thread, and you seem to be the guy! My knowledge comes from my very little experience. Going to mess with jetting and needle position this weekend. Not going to try too much while I'm waiting on my custom exhaust to be finished. Then when that is done I'll do my best to get a proper tune.

TNStreamerDreamer- Have you made up your mind on ordering a new carb?
 
Great tips racerx. I was really hoping an expert would step in on this thread, and you seem to be the guy! My knowledge comes from my very little experience. Going to mess with jetting and needle position this weekend. Not going to try too much while I'm waiting on my custom exhaust to be finished. Then when that is done I'll do my best to get a proper tune.

TNStreamerDreamer- Have you made up your mind on ordering a new carb?
I haven't. Since RacerX mentioned it might be jetted pretty close already, I was hoping I was getting close. The bike is running pretty well as far as performance goes, if you can ignore the jumpy ride, heh. Did you Mikuni bolt right up? Also, I'm assuming I should shoot for a VM20 if I do go that route, those appear to be mildly more expensive for some reason.

I'm attaching a pic of my spark plug after my ride... I can't really decipher what it is telling me. Perhaps since I haven't had the luxury of using a fresh plug it is not really showing true to rich/lean?
IMG_20190620_171027.jpg


This is after a good 20 miles since new. I'm leaning towards lean? Throttle response feels pretty decent through the whole range although I do think it died a time or two when dropping the throttle closed after a higher speed run. I have been playing with engine braking so I felt like I bump started back to running when I re-engaged.
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
Plug reading has become way more difficult than it once was. Reformulated gasoline, even the ethanol-free flavors, is very different than it was when these bikes were new.

IMHO, the coloration of that plug looks pretty damned good. It's mainly a question of the running conditions that produced the color(s). Old-school plug chops are kinda tough to do, without a test track (improvised, at least) where you can run through the gears at WOT, pull in the clutch & shut off the engine, then remove the plug for a reading. That, imo, is the second-best methodology, after EGA, using a wideband O2 meter to tell you the A:F ratio in realtime. Fortunately, neither of those are absolutely necessary.

For the sake of brevity (and the sanity of most who might be reading this) I'll cut to the chase. Starting from scratch, I find the rich limit...that means the largest main jet that will allow the engine to rev-out cleanly at WOT. At the rich limit, the next size main jet, or just one jet needle groove richer (lower groove for the C-clip) results in rich misfire. That, typically, gets you to within one jet size and 1-2 jet needle adjustments of ideal. It's nearly as simple (though a bit more tedious) as it sounds. The only potential wrinkle is when you have to choose between two main jets, with very different jet needle settings; don't lets go there right now. Since you're working with the supplied carb, test different jet needle adjustments; that, alone, should do the trick. I've yet to see a basic 110/125 engine "kit" with an oversized carb, or the wrong jetting. It could happen and there's always a chance of hitting the bad luck lottery and ending up with a defective carb, it's just very unlikely. They all seem to come with ~18mm (actual size) venturi carbs, which means high airflow velocity, easy tuning and few intractable problems. To limit power, a carburetor has to be seriously undersized...and 18mm is not grossly undersized for 8-10 peak hp.

If you suspect that the mixture is lean, move the jet needle C-clip to the lowest groove and see what effect that has. Hopefully, the mixture will be too rich, in which case you'd drop it one groove and retest. You'll find the best setting, using the old, reliable, seat-of-the-pants dyno. It really is that simple. there's only going to be one best setting and, at most plus/minus one groove in either direction that even comes close to working. This is mostly a matter of patience. It can take some time to fine-tune your senses to recognize what's going on but, once you do...you've become your own carb tuning expert.

It can be surprisingly easy to confuse rich for lean. Overrich mixtures tend to result in easy cold starting, strong throttle response, black exhaust smoke (in some cases) and rich misfire at WOT before the engine can rev-out. Lean mixtures tend to manifest as weak throttle response, hard starting when cold and having to feather the throttle to get the engine to rev out, if it will at all.
 
Plug reading has become way more difficult than it once was. Reformulated gasoline, even the ethanol-free flavors, is very different than it was when these bikes were new.

IMHO, the coloration of that plug looks pretty damned good. It's mainly a question of the running conditions that produced the color(s). Old-school plug chops are kinda tough to do, without a test track (improvised, at least) where you can run through the gears at WOT, pull in the clutch & shut off the engine, then remove the plug for a reading. That, imo, is the second-best methodology, after EGA, using a wideband O2 meter to tell you the A:F ratio in realtime. Fortunately, neither of those are absolutely necessary.

For the sake of brevity (and the sanity of most who might be reading this) I'll cut to the chase. Starting from scratch, I find the rich limit...that means the largest main jet that will allow the engine to rev-out cleanly at WOT. At the rich limit, the next size main jet, or just one jet needle groove richer (lower groove for the C-clip) results in rich misfire. That, typically, gets you to within one jet size and 1-2 jet needle adjustments of ideal. It's nearly as simple (though a bit more tedious) as it sounds. The only potential wrinkle is when you have to choose between two main jets, with very different jet needle settings; don't lets go there right now. Since you're working with the supplied carb, test different jet needle adjustments; that, alone, should do the trick. I've yet to see a basic 110/125 engine "kit" with an oversized carb, or the wrong jetting. It could happen and there's always a chance of hitting the bad luck lottery and ending up with a defective carb, it's just very unlikely. They all seem to come with ~18mm (actual size) venturi carbs, which means high airflow velocity, easy tuning and few intractable problems. To limit power, a carburetor has to be seriously undersized...and 18mm is not grossly undersized for 8-10 peak hp.

If you suspect that the mixture is lean, move the jet needle C-clip to the lowest groove and see what effect that has. Hopefully, the mixture will be too rich, in which case you'd drop it one groove and retest. You'll find the best setting, using the old, reliable, seat-of-the-pants dyno. It really is that simple. there's only going to be one best setting and, at most plus/minus one groove in either direction that even comes close to working. This is mostly a matter of patience. It can take some time to fine-tune your senses to recognize what's going on but, once you do...you've become your own carb tuning expert.

It can be surprisingly easy to confuse rich for lean. Overrich mixtures tend to result in easy cold starting, strong throttle response, black exhaust smoke (in some cases) and rich misfire at WOT before the engine can rev-out. Lean mixtures tend to manifest as weak throttle response, hard starting when cold and having to feather the throttle to get the engine to rev out, if it will at all.

Thanks so much for the in-depth explanations! It seems my next step will be toying with the needle setting. Unfortunately, I won't be able to get back to the back for another 9-10 days as I will be out of the country. I'll be sure to let you know what I find then!
 
I'm sure it'll wait till you return. Carburetors are well-know for their patience...just kidding.;)
Reporting back in...
I took the carb apart and the sucker is very clean. I sprayed all the Jets and holes just to be sure. The needle is not adjustable... The carb has a 26mm manifold opening to the engine. Big jet appears to say "86" and little jet says "35"
There is a good deal of backfire when engine braking.
I've attached some images of the carb. It doesn't seem that I am aloud to upload a video here so you can hear it idle. The performance is "bumpy" all the way to full throttle. When cruising a constant RPM it lulls and jumps. The acceleration seems responsive, it just feels like it is missing some beats. Thanks
 

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69ST

Well-Known Member
Reporting back in...
I took the carb apart and the sucker is very clean. I sprayed all the Jets and holes just to be sure. The needle is not adjustable... The carb has a 26mm manifold opening to the engine. Big jet appears to say "86" and little jet says "35"
There is a good deal of backfire when engine braking.
I've attached some images of the carb. It doesn't seem that I am aloud to upload a video here so you can hear it idle. The performance is "bumpy" all the way to full throttle. When cruising a constant RPM it lulls and jumps. The acceleration seems responsive, it just feels like it is missing some beats. Thanks

Never tuned a PD series carb. That fixed-height needle causes anxiety. I'd be thinking seriously about using a different carburetor...one that's more tuner-friendly, or at least less tuner-defiant, than this one. That said, all is not lost. If you can source the right size flat washers, you could try using them to adjust needle height. One washer should be close to one groove, in an adjustable needle. That should give you some indication as to whether, or not, this carburetor can be dialed-in well enough to use. Based on your results, so far, I'd guess 1-2 washers ought to do the trick...if they're going to. And, I'd guess that you need 3mm washers. Any decent hardware store should have them and probably in stainless steel, as well as zinc-plated steel...cheap, too.

The main possibilities...
You win the lottery on the first or second try. IOW, 1-2 washers do the trick.
It goes too lean, in which case, the next step would be a larger main jet...seems highly unlikely.
WOT mixture goes pig-rich, regardless of part-throttle results (even if those are excellent). With some carburetors, WOT mixture is affected by the jet needle. In the event that this carb is one of them, it's entirely possible that the non-adjustable jet needle will be too short to raise, using washers. If that's the case, that last little bit of throttle opening could result in wildly excessive fuel flow through the main jet.
Contact a vendor who supplies Keihin parts, there may be a choice of jet needles for this carb. If there is, I'd bet that you can find one that does the trick...either with adjusting grooves (and corresponding added length) or different tapers.
 
Never tuned a PD series carb. That fixed-height needle causes anxiety. I'd be thinking seriously about using a different carburetor...one that's more tuner-friendly, or at least less tuner-defiant, than this one. That said, all is not lost. If you can source the right size flat washers, you could try using them to adjust needle height. One washer should be close to one groove, in an adjustable needle. That should give you some indication as to whether, or not, this carburetor can be dialed-in well enough to use. Based on your results, so far, I'd guess 1-2 washers ought to do the trick...if they're going to. And, I'd guess that you need 3mm washers. Any decent hardware store should have them and probably in stainless steel, as well as zinc-plated steel...cheap, too.

The main possibilities...
You win the lottery on the first or second try. IOW, 1-2 washers do the trick.
It goes too lean, in which case, the next step would be a larger main jet...seems highly unlikely.
WOT mixture goes pig-rich, regardless of part-throttle results (even if those are excellent). With some carburetors, WOT mixture is affected by the jet needle. In the event that this carb is one of them, it's entirely possible that the non-adjustable jet needle will be too short to raise, using washers. If that's the case, that last little bit of throttle opening could result in wildly excessive fuel flow through the main jet.
Contact a vendor who supplies Keihin parts, there may be a choice of jet needles for this carb. If there is, I'd bet that you can find one that does the trick...either with adjusting grooves (and corresponding added length) or different tapers.
Thanks for the info! That is a good idea with the washers. I should have some and I will try tonight. If that doesn't help, I doubt I will fool with the carb anymore and bite the bullet on a replacement...HOWEVER..
I bought a parts bike before going out of town which happened to also have a 125 Lifan and the guy included a mikuni with the same 26mm engine side ID. The carb is in really rough shape and I brushed out and disassembled all I could. I've got all the Jets clear and have the casting soaking in seafoam at the moment. Can you identify the carb? Was thinking of getting a rebuild kit and a jet set to try. The choke arm is a little bent as it was stuck bad. I usually see these mikunis with the choke arm or the pull knob in sideways.
I was looking in to VM22 rebuild kits as this looks really close but the main jet you can see in the parts bowl is one piece and I'm not sure it is the standard wide round style jet.
 

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69ST

Well-Known Member
No idea what carb that is. Looks seriously fugly and vaguely like a Keihin knockoff. VM20 & 22 Mikunis have the bowl-mounted jet holder. VM26 is round bore, not oval.

On a Lifan125 I'd either go with a VM20, for ease of tuning & efficiency or a VM22 if you absolutely have to have the last 1-2mph...maybe...and are prepared to a.) spend some real time with jetting & dial-in and b.) likely live with an incurable hiccup in the low-throttle/off-idle range.
 
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