NOS atc110 motor for sale

Discussion in 'FOR SALE on eBay' started by fatcaaat, Dec 26, 2012.

  1. fatcaaat

    fatcaaat Well-Known Member

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  3. fatcaaat

    fatcaaat Well-Known Member

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    I put this ebay link up because at one point, I had an atc125m NOS motor in one of my CT70's. It is the same CT70 I am rebuilding 11 years later (just tore it down in the garage) and also just fill welded the holes I originally drilled in the frame to accomodate this motor.

    Now that I see this motor sitting here, I am strongly reconsidering buying it and putting it back in the frame that I originally designed to take it. With 11 years more fab skills, I would approach it differently.

    For someone considering this motor, a few things to note...it doesn't mount in directly...you can keep the top mount fine, but need to do some fab work on the bottom. You can use a CDI from any china lifan motor on it. Wiring is the same as the Lifan conversion. On the carb, I'd recommend either a VM20 or VM22.

    This will get you 45mph all day cruising, 4 speed transmission and top out around 55mph. Maybe a little more with a performance cam and exhaust. Bullet proof...absolutely....I think I had 5k on mine when i took it out. For the guy that wants to run it on the trail, you cannot beat the fact it has a 2 speed transmission in it.

    Anyway, like I said, I may actually buy this myself and sell the Takegawa 106cc setup I was planning on putting in the bike. Sure the taky will be MUCH faster, but this motor would be a real interesting alternative.
     
  4. kirrbby

    kirrbby Well-Known Member

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    I'm considering building one of these motors with the dual range transmission. I'd want to build it big and put it into a CT70. I'm lookin to get opinions on just how big they could be built and still be "bulletproof" and do it without breaking the bank? How big before you start stressin the transmission TOO much. I would want to be able to take it into the field and whoop it up, throw some mud and dirt, as well as ride it on the street. Also, ATC 110 or 125. Does it matter which engine core to start with. I'd appreciate advice and opinions because I'm definitely serious about the project.
     
  5. racerx

    racerx Administrator
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    I doubt that you'll have to worry about building it too big. These things are boat anchors...solid & heavy. The downsides are the mounts, lack of a kickstarter and lack of tuning parts. I still don't like the idea of frame mods and a recoil starter, on a bike, is hellaLame, imo. C/S sprockets are also a hassle but, unlike the other three issues, a custom sprocket can be had for little more hassle than the price. That will at least let you dial-in the gearing, maybe even gain a few more usable mph in the process.

    The 110 & 125 ATC motors are where I began the odyssey into OEM-reliable road power several years ago. I don't give up easily and am virtually unfazed by custom fabrication. Still, the disadvantages completely bottomed-out the scales for yours truly.

    If you're dead serious about ATC power for a custom CT70, i.e. you really do intend to go offroading (where the subtrans will be a big plus) then there's really no practical need to take the displacement out any further. You'll have more than enough grunt for speeds that will leave your CT bent & broken over rough terrain. 10-inch wheels are at a serious disadvantage over cratered surfaces. Once the frame has been cut & welded, you're basically married to the setup...and longevity becomes a priority. The longterm planner in me sez keep it as close to stock as you can live with. That way, you'll have the best chances of finding service parts 5-10 years in the future and the lowest likelihood of ever needing them in the first place. Think about it...the completely unstressed (mechanically) stock setup is the prime mover in this decision, isn't it? And this is precisely what makes these engines bulletproof.
     
  6. kirrbby

    kirrbby Well-Known Member

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    Lol... bent and broken are no good, is that because of the frame mods or just that the frame will not take the abuse?
    Some thoughts... I have more than 2 damaged frames that would likely be saved by using them for something like this.
    The 10 inch wheels could go to 12 easily enough. The suspension could be upgraded quite a bit.
    Some questions... is a kick start not a option at all?? Recoil or electric start only??
    How about modding the engine cases to match the frame mounts? I work in a metal fabricating plant and I have a lot of very talented friends. Most of them owe me favors. How about a custom bracket to adapt motor to frame? Essentially lowering the motor.
    I have not looked into what frame mods would be required yet. And if a recoil start is my only option than I think that would put an end to this idea in short order. The dual range trans is the only real prize here, besides satisfying my curiosity.
     
  7. fatcaaat

    fatcaaat Well-Known Member

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    Kirby, I have two ATC110 motors here..enough to make a complete one and have plenty of spares leftover. If you're interested, You can have them for the money I have in them plus the shipping. One was a runner with a cracked case. The other is 95% complete and assembled motor that could be parts or rebuild .

    Another thing..you can convert to manual transmissions and kickstarters...that' was the plan, but I've sort of lost interest. take a s90 motor and graft it on there and you have a manual transmisison, kickstart...
     
  8. Enginedoctor

    Enginedoctor Well-Known Member

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    kirby i stuffed an atc110 motor into a z50 long ago. probably when i was 17. i have a pic on my computer at home, i'll up0load it in about 8 hours...

    You probably won't need the low range. The ground clearance suffers. the motor weighs a LOT more, maybe 20-30 lbs. enough that i really noticed. Getting a kick start on it would be a pain... for that reason you might consider a ct110 motor. the footpegs from the ATC are designed to clear the pull starter and are kinda dumb on a z50 or ct70 frame. I wrote an article about this maybe in 03 or 04, someone has published on a minitrail site. if i could find it i would link it.

    As for power, my z110 easily picked up 3rd gear wheelies, not much of a feat with that little wheelbase. probably topped 45 or 46 from what i remember with my friend driving his truck next to me. The sprocket would also be a 428 up front and a 420 out back. the pin spacing is the same, so you could grind the front sprocket until it's the same width as a 420 You have to cut the mounts on the engine about 3/8 inch or so on one side. i don't remeber which.

    as for big boy parts, someone said an atc125 crank and cylinder fit on the 110 bottom end. at that point, major surgery. powroll used to blast the pin out of the halves and weld it back in further away, making a stroker. i think some have gotten to 150 cc's or in that neighborhood. that would be a decent sized ct70.

    all things considered, fatcaat's recommendation for an s90 bottom end seems easiest. DR atv makes a big bore for 104cc's and a different cam, you'd have a kickstarter, hand clutch, and 4 gears to grab/ plus multiple sprocket options.... points ignition and a battery to start though :(

    let us know what you['re planningh
     
  9. kirrbby

    kirrbby Well-Known Member

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    Well I think I need to do some reading about these engines. ATC 90-110-125. As well as the CT90 and similar with the dual range. I don't know the pros and cons between the different variations. I'll take some time to weigh my options before I make a move..
    fatcaaat I'll let ya know about those motors. Shipping might kill me on that deal tho. These atc's seem to be pretty easy to come by. $150-250 and up for the whole bike around here. If I'm going to build one I need to be sure which one is the best one. I know some are CDI and some points, different stroke lengths and cylinder Heights too I think. I gotta find out how heavy they are too. Maybe I should ride one of these 3 wheelers and try the dual range trans to see if I'm even impressed by it before I get too deep into tryin to squeeze it into a ct. Lots to consider now, TY all. Ill keep ya posted as I research and such.
     
  10. fatcaaat

    fatcaaat Well-Known Member

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    an atc110 motor is CDI all around. and weighs about 55lbs. the atc125m weighs in around 63lbs. What I was saying is you can convert an atc110 to manual kickstarer with parts from an S90. It's easy to source a rear 428 sprocket. However, I agree that a better swap would be the ct110 engine if you are keeping it stock. If you want to go crazy, the atc110 is a better builder since you can relocate the engine studs on that one as it uses a traditional flywheel rather than one bathed in oil. Also, the atc110 is 12v where the ct110 is 6v. There are virtually no aftermarket goodies for a 110...everything would have to be pieced together.
     
  11. Enginedoctor

    Enginedoctor Well-Known Member

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    yep yep yep found some goodies:

    personally, i used an atc110 motor, w/ low range. had the cdi. the bike was a 79 z50r. had to relocate the rear/lower mount. the top mount i used the original… i'm still looking for the article i wrote.
    bikemockup1.jpg
    motorinstructions.jpg
    lookslike.jpg

    sorry the pictures aren't awesome. digital cameras were in relative infancy at the time, as was my experience with them. it at least gives you an idea.

    Found the link too!!!!
     
    #10 Enginedoctor, Aug 1, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2014
  12. racerx

    racerx Administrator
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    Actually, 12" wheels are a disadvantage compared to 10s. It's simple physics...shorter radius equals less mechanical advantage, i.e. a shorter, steeper, ramp when going over uneven surfaces. Since tire diameter is limited to about 18" max, with this frame, larger wheels require shorter sidewalls - wrong direction when building a trail hog. For that matter, what substitutes for paving in our state is brutal on 10s, fitted with 4.00-10 shoes (wide cross-section/tall sidewall)...ask me how I know. Over rough trails, 15mph can be fast enough to hurt any bike this small. Personally, I cannot see the need for even 60mph power for smooth dirt roads, let alone rough trails. 45mph is plenty exciting on the best dirt road.

    As for rescuing otherwise scrap frames and creating a phantom model/OEM parts-bin custom motor...lots of possibilities, mostly limited by your creativity & mechanical knowledge. The key term is "mostly". The biggest concern I have with involved, non-reversible, projects is simple logistics. Oftentimes, there's an unobtainium part, or three, in the deal. If it happens to be something critical, a simple repair could leave one sidelined indefinitely. Don't take what I'm saying the wrong way. My approach is to start off addressing the worst-case scenarios, hence the devil's advocate angle. Once you've addressed the worst that might happen, everything else becomes relatively easy to take in stride. "Expect the worst, hope for the best, reality will likely fall somewhere in the middle.

    Seriously, I still have the same low-mileage CT110 lump that was originally slated for my Candy Purple Dax custom. The case mod (trimmed motor mount) has already been done. If I ever get around to sorting out a manual clutch, it may go into another frame. I'm still not keen on the brake arm pivot/lower mount conflict, but keeping a (sort of) open mind
     
  13. fatcaaat

    fatcaaat Well-Known Member

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    I, too, have been back and forth on this whole conversion thing. Having swapped an ATC125m engine into a CT70 years ago, it was a great machine, but not really aligned with what I wanted, or needed, at the time. In my quest to build the biggest, fastest CT70 that could run 65mph all day on the highway, I sacraficed drivability and reliability and 10 years later I have come full circle back to looking for something a little more tame and a little more controllable, and something usable in a dual sport capacity. I still have my street CT70's that are only usable on the road...and would never part with them or change them now that they have real Honda lumps (Honda Nice) in them. However, the dual sport bike I completed a few months back has a paltry 88cc motor, 3-speed auto in it...and the intention of those atc110 motors I have was to build one to put inside this CT.

    The plan was relatively simple...use the pieces I have here from a Honda S90 and graft in a kickstarter and manual clutch. That's an easy enough activity. Next was to remove the pull start assembly and use a block off plate on it made from aluminum. Again, easy peasy...that means that a set of CT90 or CT110 footpegs should mount on. The rest of it is really not worth getting into since I've already been there and done it before with the atc125m engine. If I could go back and do it all over again, I never would have sold that atc125m engine. Instead, I would have removed the pull starter and added in the expensive battery and left it as an electric start only motor. Something tells me that eventually I will do some motor swaps around here on some of the stuff that is more custom. I do have a ct110 here with a completely rebuild motor....a couplle of ATC110 motors and an atc125m trike that's complete, but currently not running. I could build out the atc110 motor and put it in the trike. Take the CT110 motor and put it in the CT70. And then take the atc125m motor and put it in the CT110 as described above. That would then leave me with an 88cc 'hammerhead" motor to sell off.

    This would probably result in the best scenario for all bikes involved...but the amount of work/labor, and my current desire to really build anything has significantly fallen off. What is likely to happen is to replace the top end on the ATC125m and get the wheeler running. Leaving the CT110 and CT70 alone, and either selling or experimenting with the atc110 motors.
     
  14. Jay Bird13

    Jay Bird13 Member

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    Not the place for this message, but... Bob ur mail box is full and I cannot respond to your PM, until you delete some old messages.
    Sorry for the rude interruption on ur conversation, gentlemen!
    Thanks,
    J
     
  15. Enginedoctor

    Enginedoctor Well-Known Member

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    fatcat and racerx, my experience with these bikes is significantly less than yours, but having done the swap… i have some input to be considered…

    the ct70 frame has those reinforcements welded in (basically a washer) to help the frame remain solid. they would have to be relocated on the lower mount to make things work out alright… on the z50 it wasn't an issue, because the steel is the same thickness all around in that area.

    As far as the starter goes, the electric start would be bitchin… really trick on a ct70, but the pull start is just off… who feels like a badass leaving anywhere and having to pullstart your vintage motorcycle? it might as well be a snowblower at that point. the kick starter really makes it a 'bike' engine…. With the electric start on the 125m, the starter sits above the motor, i don't know if it would interfere with the frame… i assume it wouldn't, but this would force the carb to be all the way out to the side, which means you'd now have an air box or filter on the left side wayy back near your leg.

    With the manual clutch, an s90 or sl90 sidecover and clutch assembly might be the only way. i think they fit the 110's (anyone?) and maybe the 125's as a result. again, we're getting into 'real' bike territory with a kickstarter and manual clutch

    as for displacement, well, i like the platform. aftermarket parts? keep dreamin. maybe in the 70's… with 54mm cranks and bores available for the little stock blocks that came in the ct70 to begin with, that makes 123.7 cc's or similar with my math (swag), so does the 125m even seem that great about now? i like how big the parts are, and the ability to flow large amounts of air right out of the box… i like that the head studs are 8mm not 6mm…. i like that the crank, bearings, clutch, and bottom end are all bigger…. When i did my swap back in the day it was because i couldn't afford the tak or kitaco stuff. now i can, but i still don't want to…

    Since the platform starts out bigger, is there any guess as to how big a 125m engine, as an example, could go out to? i was reading on another forum that some guy took his postie bike down under up to 150 cc's… no visible proof though, but i assume aside from a calipers and his engine, none will ever exist….

    i dunno, years ago i thought it was awesome. today i still think it was pretty cool. If i really wanted to go hog wild these days, i'd do a 110 or 117 w/ a nice race head, 4 speed tranny, and just drive it. i wonder if the 110 swap was worth the effort, other than the experience it gave me...
     
  16. kirrbby

    kirrbby Well-Known Member

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    Lots of good info and food for thought. Is it worth the effort, is the big question. And is it possible to do it well is still questionable too I spose. I didn't know the frame mods would include the brake lever mount, that would definitely complicate things. I was kinda counting on being able to up the displacement too and that sounds like a challenge as well. 150cc's with a low range transmission... bulletproof...pretty attractive proposition. I've found a couple threads on other forums but I haven't found any that were taken to completion. Makes a man think. Ill keep lookin tho. So far every aspect of making the swap work... well... in a CT70 and with added power above 125... sounds difficult. I'm still in at this point, still need to do some web searchin for any available info. Would like to see some good pics of the frame mods folks have done. I need a motor here to be able to stare at, and play with too. Sounds like a ---l o n g ---t e r m ---p r o j e c t.
     
    #15 kirrbby, Aug 2, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2014
  17. racerx

    racerx Administrator
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    Been traveling over the past week...and falling a bit behind here.

    I pretty much agree with eveything in the past three posts. In the end, it boils down to what you consider a worthwhile project. There are lots of ways to get 110cc+ and 60mph power has never been easier. At one time, the scene was very different...60mph was quite an accomplishment and 99.9% of the parts could only be imported as the US side of things lagged way behind Japan & the EU. Things have more, or less, gone full circle. IMO, the US scene is now the most dynamic and, since the greenback has regained some ground, JDM parts are the most affordable they've been in over a decade.

    OTOH, it is well beyond a decade later, there's now a lot of experience behind us and a lot of changes. The one constant: no matter what one decides, there will always be at least one significant compromise. Jarred & I have discussed various concepts as to what constitutes the ideal bike...and reached the conclusion that there is no such thing. At a minimum, a hardcore enthusiast who wants it all will need to build at least 2, or 3, very different bikes.

    My view, FWIW, is that the more years & miles are in your plans, the closer to stock your setup will be...albeit fortified in some way(s). I've really learned to appreciate the kind of balance that's possible with an OEM development team & budget. There have been a lot of lessons learned the hard way. Since this thread has focused on building a rock-solid dual-sport machine, with real road capabilities (offroad, you'll never be able to use 60mph power) I suggest that you keep sight of the big picture. Horsepower, displacement and purchase price grab most of the attention but, they're just headline numbers and say diddly-squat about the riding experience you have in store, from the saddle, where it counts. The basic design and layout of the CT70 can't really be changed very much, if you wish to retain all of the versatility of the original bike. Retaining (hopefully improving) balance (stability, suspension capability, braking) takes real planning, effort & bucks. The faster you want to go, the more rolling chassis upgrades will be needed to deal with the added stresses. Most guys are seriously averse to the costs of the upgrades needed to balance a big infusion of power. If this is going to be "meat & potatoes" rider, you'll want to stay on the conservative side. If, otoh, it's going to be a permanent project, or other type of limited-use machine, the less breakdowns/parts setbacks will matter and the further you can push the limits. An ATC110, 125m, CT110, or similar, lump can fit the bill. They'll all be durable and deliver about the same torque, regardless of the hp differences, meaning roughly the same usable speed range. For that matter, an extra 30lbs in the boiler room should actually improve straight-line stability. It's what you want and are willing to do to get it. IMO, most guys overestimate how fast they'll actually ride, over any distance; that's a common mistake that can result in a lot of wasted effort(s).

    As you said, lots to consider and probably best approached from a longterm standpoint.
     
  18. kirrbby

    kirrbby Well-Known Member

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    SanDogDewey's post got me thinking about this again. How about starting with a ST90, or just a ST90 frame. The motor mounts would be correct..? Then build it to LOOK like a CT70. Not sure if the ground clearance would work with 10 or 12 inch wheels?
     
    cjpayne likes this.
  19. Enginedoctor

    Enginedoctor Well-Known Member

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    Kirby I like your idea. Go with an st frame, and I'd drop in an SL or s 90 motor, because of the extra gear to grab and the manual clutch, right from the getgo. The sl, s and st have three case mounts, whereas, if I remember correct, the atc only had two. On some I thought they put one on the head, but the last time I saw something with three wheels I didn't pay much attention to it.
    I'd assume on the 90 cases you could build a 125 top end, and drop the crank in, but I don't know what changed as far as stroke. I know the gasket setup changed between the 90 and 110 but if you were running a complete top end it shouldn't be an issue.....

    we should combine our.... powers... and parts to see if we can make a look alike that makes some noise...
     
  20. racerx

    racerx Administrator
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    This could easily snowball into quite a re-engineering project, if you want to make an ST90 look like a CT70, with 10" wheels. It'd take far fewer changes to alter the motor mounts on a CT70 frame. An ST90 would probably deliver better results, with less work still, assuming the motor mounts are the same as the engine...that should be verified first.
     
  21. mikejana

    mikejana Active Member

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    So sorry if this is a redirection, but is a st90 frame that much bigger than a CT?
    and how does the Dax frame compare?
    Thanks
     

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