kirrbby
Well-Known Member
That is some good and helpful info Loopie. I tend to ride like the... aging gentleman, that I am. So, it's unlikely that I'll be scrubbing this pipe on the street
Ol Dirty Bastard
- Thread starter kirrbby
- Start date
That is some good and helpful info Loopie. I tend to ride like the... aging gentleman, that I am. So, it's unlikely that I'll be scrubbing this pipe on the street
IMO it boils down to form following function. You're going to live with the results. If you're going to ride this machine any appreciable amount and at road speed, mechanical priorities are going to dictate themselves to you...the rider. As the miles & years roll by, a harsh ride, lack of suspension control, and a loud exhaust will eventually get on your last nerve. Do keep in mind that you'll also have to service this machine...and what that might entail. A low-mount exhaust is going to make life more complicated when lifting & supporting the bike, most are arm/leg-burners if one is not vigilant. The lack of an engine guard won't help any, either...not to mention the further deviation from the stock-ish rat bike theme you mentioned.
If you're looking to hold down the budget on this build, Pat's green machine looks to be a good example of the 80/20 rule, applied to suspension. No single component can give as much rolling chassis improvement (especially in terms of ride quality) as a pair of good shocks. Invest the money there, oil-tune your fork and you'll 70-80% of what's possible in suspension + ride quality upgrades...a lot of bang for the bucks. Had that Takegawa Dax pipe been available in 2004, I'd have tried one, at least. Dunno exactly how the sound compares to what I'm running but, there's something to be said for a pipe with a stock-like fitment, made from 3-series stainless, plus the price is right.
If you're looking to hold down the budget on this build, Pat's green machine looks to be a good example of the 80/20 rule, applied to suspension. No single component can give as much rolling chassis improvement (especially in terms of ride quality) as a pair of good shocks. Invest the money there, oil-tune your fork and you'll 70-80% of what's possible in suspension + ride quality upgrades...a lot of bang for the bucks. Had that Takegawa Dax pipe been available in 2004, I'd have tried one, at least. Dunno exactly how the sound compares to what I'm running but, there's something to be said for a pipe with a stock-like fitment, made from 3-series stainless, plus the price is right.
kirrbby
Well-Known Member
IDK...it seems if I stuck to form follows function, I'd have 5 identical bikes...one in each of my favorite colors. Pick the parts that function best for you...and you're done.
BTW, for down pipes, high dollar, I like this one VERY well. Mizumoto dax low rider. The same pipe that's on the dax. I've been trying to buy another one for a couple of years now. Some kind of glitch on the website...and they don't seem to be interested in helping me.
http://www.daxdodo.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_109&products_id=11575
BTW, for down pipes, high dollar, I like this one VERY well. Mizumoto dax low rider. The same pipe that's on the dax. I've been trying to buy another one for a couple of years now. Some kind of glitch on the website...and they don't seem to be interested in helping me.
http://www.daxdodo.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_109&products_id=11575
#183 is a point-counterpoint i.e. "measure twice... then measure a few more times, cut once" view. IOW thinking out loud. That's best done before committing bucks into metal. Seems I should clarify the term "function". It's not some monolithic, universal, parameter that can be worked out mathematically. In this instance, "function"is how the bike will be used. That could be racing, touring, showing, offroading, collecting dust, being a decorative item inside of a glass case, etc. Each has its own set of options/requirements.
Those lowered "slammed into the weeds" builds, with rigid rear ends, 1" of fork travel, ape-hangers and jockey-shifters have forms that follow function.
As down pipes go, I kinda like that one. It's more practical than most, too. I saw the details on that bike when it was completed. As JDM builds go, it's a tastefully restrained exercise in functional bling. (Many Japanese builders seem to prefer a highly blinged-out, disco ball, aesthetic) It's also a high-budget (easily $12K in finished parts, alone), not intended for much mileage. How long would that machine survive our 3rd world roads? IOW, it was built to a different purpose (i.e. primary function) and thus its form.
Short and directly to the point, suspension, especially the shocks, are one of the most critical areas of a road build...if not the most critical. If it comes down to a tightly limited budget for the exhaust & shocks, mo`better to go for the best shocks the budget will allow and cut corners with the exhaust. A cheap exhaust won't bruise vertebrae or kidneys...or bend & break shock mounts.
Those lowered "slammed into the weeds" builds, with rigid rear ends, 1" of fork travel, ape-hangers and jockey-shifters have forms that follow function.
As down pipes go, I kinda like that one. It's more practical than most, too. I saw the details on that bike when it was completed. As JDM builds go, it's a tastefully restrained exercise in functional bling. (Many Japanese builders seem to prefer a highly blinged-out, disco ball, aesthetic) It's also a high-budget (easily $12K in finished parts, alone), not intended for much mileage. How long would that machine survive our 3rd world roads? IOW, it was built to a different purpose (i.e. primary function) and thus its form.
Short and directly to the point, suspension, especially the shocks, are one of the most critical areas of a road build...if not the most critical. If it comes down to a tightly limited budget for the exhaust & shocks, mo`better to go for the best shocks the budget will allow and cut corners with the exhaust. A cheap exhaust won't bruise vertebrae or kidneys...or bend & break shock mounts.
kirrbby
Well-Known Member
I was getting pretty discouraged with trying to strip paint off of my engine covers. I was expecting to be bead blasting them sometime this week.
After a 18 hour soak, and a brass wire brush, the clutch cover looks like this.
But today, after a 4 day soak, the flywheel cover looks like this.
Now I'm feeling really good about it. The flywheel cover looks like it'll be a breeze to sand and polish compared to the engine cases.
I'm going to coat and cover the clutch cover today, and leave it for a few days.
Yay!! Progress
After a 18 hour soak, and a brass wire brush, the clutch cover looks like this.
But today, after a 4 day soak, the flywheel cover looks like this.
Now I'm feeling really good about it. The flywheel cover looks like it'll be a breeze to sand and polish compared to the engine cases.
I'm going to coat and cover the clutch cover today, and leave it for a few days.
Yay!! Progress
Last edited:
Oh yeah, that'll be a breeze compared to some of the other parts. Flat & convex surfaces play nicely with a sanding block. Some of those tight recesses you'll be able to "cheat" with the buffing wheel.
What you see in the photo, the scratches & shallow gouges, those are what dictate the metalfinishing. Had you bead blasted (or worse yet used a more aggressive media) you'd have to level the profiling, over the entire part, caused by media blasting first...then deal with these as-received blemishes. You just saved yourself a huge, needless, task.
Best estimate, 2-4 hours to massage this cover into mirror-like splendor...and it may be the most impressive example of your polishing skill on this bike.
What you see in the photo, the scratches & shallow gouges, those are what dictate the metalfinishing. Had you bead blasted (or worse yet used a more aggressive media) you'd have to level the profiling, over the entire part, caused by media blasting first...then deal with these as-received blemishes. You just saved yourself a huge, needless, task.
Best estimate, 2-4 hours to massage this cover into mirror-like splendor...and it may be the most impressive example of your polishing skill on this bike.
kirrbby
Well-Known Member
My clutch cover has had stripper on it for 2 days. I scrubbed a small area of it today to check the progress. It seems to be working, but the paint hasn't given up yet. I'm hoping it will be ready tomorrow, so I can bring it home before the weekend.
My project hasn't moved much for the last week. I have been collecting some of the missing parts tho.
My project hasn't moved much for the last week. I have been collecting some of the missing parts tho.
kirrbby
Well-Known Member
I've thought the same thing. But the stripper is definitely doing some damage. I think, wort case, I'll scrub the whole cover tomorrow and see how it looks. Then it'll either be good, or I'll coat it again and leave it soak for the weekend. At that point, I really think it will be stripped clean. I'm thinking positive OLD CT. I need a...nother morale boost to get me fired back up on this project. Getting the clutch cover stripped will remove my last big blocker.
You're doing this right and getting some serious education that few people will ever have. It's why chrome plating is expensive, too. Plated parts must be metalfinished to perfection, then polished to get the desired result. Only chromed parts can be copper plated, then metalfinished, to fill-in surface flaws...though that can be a long process in and of itself. Polished aluminum is a harsh taskmaster; it's sanding...sanding...sanding...sanding...more sanding...more sanding beyond that...then still more sanding...until one achieves perfection or reaches their tolerance limit.
This is what I meant when I described the process as a "war of attrition". There is an upside to this. With this kind of personal investment, once completed, you'll savor the victory.
As for the factory PC, I very much doubt it. I've stripped, metalfinished & polished new aluminum Honda parts. Paint stripper barely touched the coating, walnut shell blasting took it quickly. PC is far tougher to remove. The last powdercoated parts I stripped & polished were a pair of brake plates. That turned into a daylong project...after soaking in methylene chloride paint stripper (the stuff that's supposed to remove PC), burning and glass bead blasting. I've read more than one manufacturer-supplied tech sheet describing the burn-off process, it's usually something like 850F for a specified duration. Then, the part can be media blasted back to bare metal.
This is what I meant when I described the process as a "war of attrition". There is an upside to this. With this kind of personal investment, once completed, you'll savor the victory.
As for the factory PC, I very much doubt it. I've stripped, metalfinished & polished new aluminum Honda parts. Paint stripper barely touched the coating, walnut shell blasting took it quickly. PC is far tougher to remove. The last powdercoated parts I stripped & polished were a pair of brake plates. That turned into a daylong project...after soaking in methylene chloride paint stripper (the stuff that's supposed to remove PC), burning and glass bead blasting. I've read more than one manufacturer-supplied tech sheet describing the burn-off process, it's usually something like 850F for a specified duration. Then, the part can be media blasted back to bare metal.
kirrbby
Well-Known Member
lol... That's kinda what I thought too...eek!
We have 3 different strippers at work, in 5 gallon buckets.
Peel Away 7
Smart Strip (a Peel Away product)
and Citrus Strip
I've been using the Smart Strip, because I think it may be the strongest..? IDK, this part is from a 2005 Honda. Maybe by 2005 the paint had reached, super duper tough and good, quality.
If I had a worthy compressor, I'd have bought a cheap blast cabinet by now, and wrote "WALNUT SHELLS ONLY" all over it
I have gone a couple rounds, sanding on the flywheel cover. Slow progress...I'm not working to hard at it just yet.
All of those dark spots are corrosion, and they don't look deep at all...until you start trying to sand them out with 400 grit.
work work work...
The first couple pics are aftre 220 grit...trying to sand out one small scuff mark...which you can still see, under the H.
We have 3 different strippers at work, in 5 gallon buckets.
Peel Away 7
Smart Strip (a Peel Away product)
and Citrus Strip
I've been using the Smart Strip, because I think it may be the strongest..? IDK, this part is from a 2005 Honda. Maybe by 2005 the paint had reached, super duper tough and good, quality.
If I had a worthy compressor, I'd have bought a cheap blast cabinet by now, and wrote "WALNUT SHELLS ONLY" all over it
I have gone a couple rounds, sanding on the flywheel cover. Slow progress...I'm not working to hard at it just yet.
All of those dark spots are corrosion, and they don't look deep at all...until you start trying to sand them out with 400 grit.
work work work...
The first couple pics are aftre 220 grit...trying to sand out one small scuff mark...which you can still see, under the H.
Last edited:
kirrbby
Well-Known Member
Bob, I appreciate all of the advice. I've been trying to use it to my advantage as best I can. I heard you when you said sanding block. This flywheel cover had a small scrape right on the money shot...face of the part. I knew better than to just go after that one spot with my sanding...creating a low spot that would have shown like a dent in chrome. Unfortunately that meant I had to sand the entire face down far enough to remove all of the scrape...hopefully uniformly enough to look like it never happened. I'm using a 1 1/2" x 2 1/4" x 1/2" piece of hard rubber for the block. I cut the paper to wrap around, and I use push pins to pin it in place. Using the block helps to keep a flat surface flat. If I had just used a piece of paper by hand, I would have risked ending up with a wavy surface, that would reflect a wavy shine. I've made that mistake before with my woodworking....even drywall finishing. I'm sure a lot of paint and body guys have made that mistake before too.
There is a similar spot, maybe 2, on the clutch cover. I'm a little worried about that spot, and the depth of the damage. I hope I'll be able to make it disappear. I have a couple different clutch covers that might have been better candidates for polishing...unfortunately, I never even considered it, until now.
Kirby, your understanding of the process and your situation is like 99% on-the-money. There are situations where imperfections are so deep that they are impractical, or impossible, to completely eliminate. Sometimes, it is possible to "cheat"...a little. You are absolutely right, digging-down to smooth a small, localized, area, or sanding freehand, will create waves that will be about as easy to ignore as a fart in a pantomime horse costume.
The upper LH area I've highlighted in red is good example of how you might be able to "cheat" the area between the red lines. Removing the material necessary to reach a smooth surface can be done in a way that creates a natural concave area, that can then be blended into the surrounding metal, smoothed & polished. Continuing to remove metal, straight-across, could possibly weaken the casting. I'm not so sure it would look quite right, either. And, speaking from experience, the amount of hand sanding required is making weary just thinking about it.
A polishing shop (including most chromers) would be able to do this part in a couple of hours, tops. They also have six-digits worth of specialized machinery & equipment, along with decades of hands-on experience. I've amassed a locker full of metalfinishing/polishing tools, equipment and compounds...and am still nowhere near having the full capabilities of a polishing shop. Regardless, the process remains the same...level, metalfinish, polish. The big difference is the amount of this tedious work can be mechanized. Those rubber sanding blocks are the right tools...for the fine detail work. When they are your primary equipment...well...what you're experiencing is normal and to be expected. Otherwise, farming it out would make more sense than trying to set yourself up with enough new equipment to make the job less painstaking.
I think the little divot below the "H" can be "cheated" with careful feather-sanding, i.e. long strokes to blend the overall surface, while concentrating the heaviest metal removal in the immediate area. The other approach would be to sand the imperfection out, then blend the surrounding surface are flat enough to get a wave-free surface. That latter method is riskier. Either should work. Believe it, or not, that beveled face around the perimeter of the flywheel cover is one of the more forgiving areas of this part. It's possible to restore the bevel width, close enough to satisfy the eye. Follow that by softening the sharp boundary edges at the buffer (tripoli will remove material from sharp, convex, surfaces very effectively) and you'll end up with a very-convincing, liquid-smooth (visually) part.
The ugly truth is that not every surface flaw can be completely eliminated. If the scarring is too deep, you can be faced with a choice between living with a flaw, a noticeably deformed part that doesn't look right...or a weakened part. If that weren't enough mental anguish, different alloys have different finishing/polishing requirements and the "perfectly polished" surface will look different, due to the actual crystalline structure of the metal, what some refer to as polishing "down to the rocks". I do have a way of taking away the "bottomless pit" feeling that comes with complex polishing tasks...concentrate on one, small, area. Do whatever it takes to bring it as close to perfection as possible. It's less overwhelming to work on one small flaw. And more importantly, it's a good way to see what a reasonable expectation is for any given item, until you've done enough of them to know beforehand.
The upper LH area I've highlighted in red is good example of how you might be able to "cheat" the area between the red lines. Removing the material necessary to reach a smooth surface can be done in a way that creates a natural concave area, that can then be blended into the surrounding metal, smoothed & polished. Continuing to remove metal, straight-across, could possibly weaken the casting. I'm not so sure it would look quite right, either. And, speaking from experience, the amount of hand sanding required is making weary just thinking about it.
A polishing shop (including most chromers) would be able to do this part in a couple of hours, tops. They also have six-digits worth of specialized machinery & equipment, along with decades of hands-on experience. I've amassed a locker full of metalfinishing/polishing tools, equipment and compounds...and am still nowhere near having the full capabilities of a polishing shop. Regardless, the process remains the same...level, metalfinish, polish. The big difference is the amount of this tedious work can be mechanized. Those rubber sanding blocks are the right tools...for the fine detail work. When they are your primary equipment...well...what you're experiencing is normal and to be expected. Otherwise, farming it out would make more sense than trying to set yourself up with enough new equipment to make the job less painstaking.
I think the little divot below the "H" can be "cheated" with careful feather-sanding, i.e. long strokes to blend the overall surface, while concentrating the heaviest metal removal in the immediate area. The other approach would be to sand the imperfection out, then blend the surrounding surface are flat enough to get a wave-free surface. That latter method is riskier. Either should work. Believe it, or not, that beveled face around the perimeter of the flywheel cover is one of the more forgiving areas of this part. It's possible to restore the bevel width, close enough to satisfy the eye. Follow that by softening the sharp boundary edges at the buffer (tripoli will remove material from sharp, convex, surfaces very effectively) and you'll end up with a very-convincing, liquid-smooth (visually) part.
The ugly truth is that not every surface flaw can be completely eliminated. If the scarring is too deep, you can be faced with a choice between living with a flaw, a noticeably deformed part that doesn't look right...or a weakened part. If that weren't enough mental anguish, different alloys have different finishing/polishing requirements and the "perfectly polished" surface will look different, due to the actual crystalline structure of the metal, what some refer to as polishing "down to the rocks". I do have a way of taking away the "bottomless pit" feeling that comes with complex polishing tasks...concentrate on one, small, area. Do whatever it takes to bring it as close to perfection as possible. It's less overwhelming to work on one small flaw. And more importantly, it's a good way to see what a reasonable expectation is for any given item, until you've done enough of them to know beforehand.
kirrbby
Well-Known Member
I checked the cover yesterday, after 4 more days, the paint was still holding on. I think I'll have to just do the work if I'm gonna get the part stripped clean. The stripper will soften the outer layer of paint enough to scrub it off with the brass wire brush. But you have to work at it.
If I scrub the whole part again, then soak it one more time, it would likely be clean after the 3rd scrub.
The stripper that we have here at work is probably all more than 10 years old. Maybe it's lost some strength? I know at least one of them says on the bucket to use within one year of opening. But some of it is still unopened.
If I scrub the whole part again, then soak it one more time, it would likely be clean after the 3rd scrub.
The stripper that we have here at work is probably all more than 10 years old. Maybe it's lost some strength? I know at least one of them says on the bucket to use within one year of opening. But some of it is still unopened.
What's the length? Ideally, you want 335-340mm, not exactly universal lengths. The more common 320mm shock length is getting really short, for one of these bikes.
kirrbby
Well-Known Member
That's a good question. I looked into them a while back and determined they were right, or close. But it may have been the aftermarket ones that I found the length for.
Maybe Hornetgod can check a measurement on his. Or I might be able to find some specs if I look around online.
Maybe Hornetgod can check a measurement on his. Or I might be able to find some specs if I look around online.
