You haven't seen this one yet...another 1993 CT70

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
It is a wonderful spring day and I just got done taking this bike out for a nice backroad run during lunch break. Here are a few pictures of this fully modified bike I have here as well as another CT I have sitting out there ready to take on the summer. 3-CT's down, one on the build stand.

This CT is a bit of an oddity compared to all the other ones I own. First, I didn't build this...I purchased it from someone as a near-complete project, but I did have to complete it. Second, it has a small (for me) motor in it at 117cc. However, it does hold its own and 50mph seems to be a speed that is easily maintained provided I am not going to climb up hills.

Enjoy these pics!
 

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Very nice. You didn't buy that red bike in Kansas, did you? Also, how are those Over pipes, as far as tone? Annoying on a long ride, and do they catch the attention of the local authorities?
 

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
well, i sold this bike in 2014 and just purchased it back! So, here's the plan

Install a honda nice 142cc engine
Change the catch can setup.

Ride.
 

cornishrooster

Active Member
well, i sold this bike in 2014 and just purchased it back! So, here's the plan

Install a honda nice 142cc engine
Change the catch can setup.

Ride.


Love that blue honda in the last few pictures. Saw pics of that one a while back on google search... or one that was similar anyway. That's what I want to do with this clone I have.
 

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
I've come back to this thread as the bike is almost ready for prime time. I have installed the 142cc engine as planned but put a stock honda Nice head on it instead of the roller rocker setup. I know I'll lose a little power (well, maybe a lot) but at least this should keep longevity going. I also installed a set of G-craft rear sets instead of traditional foot rests. I wanted to do something different with this. The gearing had to be changed too...we went from 17/32 to 18/29. You can see the catch can setup is different now as well. I also changed the handlebar left hand control and both levers to billet aluminum versions. These are the same I run on another bike I have and I find them to be pretty nice as they are also adjustable. I rerouted all the fuel lines as previously the one takeoff from the tank was plugged with the addition of the aux tank...i don't like that solution, so i modified that setup. Lastly, the takegawa forged aluminum kicker wouldn't clear the rearsets, so I swapped it with another kicker from another bike. Happy now.

A few things are left to complete before we can take it out on its voyage. First, I need to polish the clutch cover and the counter sprocket guard, get them installed and get the correct cable and clutch cable holder at the cases. I'll probably have to cut the counter sprocket cover some more so it clears the rearset mounts. Second, the oil vapor returns need to be completed.
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69ST

Well-Known Member
Honestly, I don't think you'll lose much at the very top. Best guess, it'll pull 70-75mph on the flat, ~15-16hp peak...with a billiard-table flat torque curve. I think that's about all the airflow the head can support, with the stock valves in place. I peg that at ~1-2hp & ~3mph more than if this were a stock-stroke 127cc tune, but coming on about 1500rpm lower. The biggest differences will be torque-related...you'll be surfing the torque, instead of the horsepower; the gap between top speed and sustainable speed will be smaller. IOW, you're giving up a little top speed but what remains will be solid, not fragile. I expect this will be the reliable high-speed cruiser you want.

FYI, I run those same rear shocks on my other road machine and they're pretty good, if a little on the harsh side. That should compliment the Ray Perez-tuned fork quite nicely.
 

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
Good input Bob. I tend to agree with your assessment. I'm not expecting this to be a speed demon...i want something I can run 55mph, uphill...this should do it. The overall design of this bike that Dan Smith built was pretty solid, but not entirely to my liking. The biggest things I needed to do were the front fender, the super small, skinny front tire, and the motor. IT didn't really need rearsets, but I wanted something different and they are positioned well and comfortable enough for me. I do prefer the nice rubber covered footrest, but this bike will be a limited use bike.

As for a compare, I do have the 127cc here, but it is sporting the takegawa 4v+r head. I suspect that changes things in terms of compare. I expect both of these bikes to be relatively equals on the street, power delivered a little differently.
 

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
Always cool stuff Fatcaaat,
where did you find another Nice motor?
I purchased a clapped out Nice motor from someone on this board...it was an Asian Concept Thai build that I had rebuilt twice. It had a lot of miles on it, so it required a complete rebuild, several new gears, a complete top end, new left case...it was a huge investment to bring this back to life.

This is the first time I've had this exact configuration...the nice 142 i've had before, but it was topped with a Takegawa 2V+r head. Here, I elected to remove the trailbikes v2 head and put a stock head on it. I did that for longevity as the V2 head has needed 3 rebuilds in 12k miles. I give up some power for less maintenance.
 

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
Fatcaaat, how is the reputation of the trailbikes V2 head now? It seems they had some quality issues early on..?
 

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
Fatcaaat, how is the reputation of the trailbikes V2 head now? It seems they had some quality issues early on..?
The only quality issues were related to the valve guides being too tight...this particular head had that issue. They were honed out and assembled. Over time, they got loose...12k miles the guides were shot so I had to replace those. The rockers needed to be replaced around 10k. The valves were replaced twice too. I ended up installing custom guides made from different materials...the stockers are not bad, but since I had the option, I went for it. I installed takegawa rockers, which quite frankly, are lighter, but really no more durable IMO. I installed stock valves, but replacing with the takegawa stainless valves would be preferred. They also need more frequent adjustments which should increase longevity.

So now i have this beautifully rebuilt V2 head, and nothing to put it on. I had considered keeping it so I could replace parts on the actual Takegawa 2v+r head i have if they ever went, but i'll prob just sell it.
 

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
Thx Fatcaaat, good info.
I'm not too familiar with the Nice 110 head. Maybe I just need to read up on it. I'm thinking it's made very similar to the CT70, or TRX90 heads, just with bigger stock valves. Any other major differences?
2 valve, bearing cam, solid rockers...typical design like every Honda horizontal?

Seems I've heard that it is possible to cut a head for oversized valves..? Cut the seats bigger and then have custom valves made?? Plus major port work..?

Awesome bike btw.
 

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
The nice head actually sports small valves like the TRX90. As a matter of fact, you could swap a nice head and trx90 head interchangebility if you made enough clearance in the trx90 head for the larger cam gear. All other parts are swappable. Truthfully, there is no reason to put a honda nice head on anything other than a Honda nice. If you wanted to put a non-roller rocker head on something, the takegawa or kitaco options are superior to anything else if you are going big. Otherwise, the TB non roller head is fine. There are takegawa non roller versions with 27mm intakes and 24mm exhausts...

All else the same, the Nice stock head really offers no advantages other than reliability as a honda quality OEM part.
 

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing Jarred. Good info. I like the TRX90 heads, and they are cheap on eBay. Sounds like I could run one on a 124cc with good results.
It's starting to look like my son will end up with my 124cc 4 valve Dax. My #1.
I'll have to replace that bike with something...similarly awesome.
 

mikejana

Active Member
Thanks Guys,
Great info!
I built 4 motors on my binge last year. 3 of them run perfect and the one on my bike, is a pain in the rear. Just can't seem to get it right. The wife and kids buzz around all the time and I'm sidelined. I'd love to find a Nice motor.
Appreciate the inspiration.
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
TJR still modifies the OEM Nice head for 28.5/25mm valves with reduced-diameter (4mm, as I recall) valve stems. And you're right, the ports are huge, especially the intake. That said, Boyle's law still applies; increasing port volume decreases flow velocity. On the street, with anything smaller than ~160cc, that makes for an inefficient head at low-to-midrange rpm, where oversized ports are a liability.

15 years ago, things were very different. A 60mph bike was a milestone achievement, so raising the bar to 70, 75, 80+ became a goal unto itself. Fast forward a decade, or so, horsepower has never been cheaper. There's also some field service history out there and the tradeoffs have shown themselves. This discussion has been refined & focused, over a number of years...on real-world, 5-digit, road mileage. With 60-65mph on tap, almost plug & play, from a bone-stocker, it's now about the balance of miles and miles per hour. It's a balancing act, always has been.

The main issue, imo, is that all of the roller heads that fit these engines are aftermarket race parts. They weren't engineered to deliver OEM service life. I agree with Jarred, there is no real airflow volume advantage of the Nice head and the valves are small. That said, it's the small ports, valves and combustion chamber are where it is impressive...for the efficiency. And, since it is an OEM Honda part, it was engineered to for long service life as well. Efficient operation matters on the road...a fat & flat torque curve + crisp throttle response + high mpg numbers = usable power. It's a question of how much airflow (and with it hp) one has to trade to get the known longevity.

In a (coco)nut shell...as mph & hp increase, so too do costs - initial & longterm cost-per mile. The only thing that decreases is mileage between rebuilds. As a former mentor once put it, engine service life can be thought of as the liquid contents of a 55 gallon drum, tuning for more hp like installing a larger tap...that will empty it faster. Where do you want, or need, to set the balance point? IMHO, 50-60mph is real world cruising speed on these little bikes, when they're well set-up. Anything much beyond that is only good for short bursts and 70mph+ isn't as enjoyable as it might sound. Dealing with substantial grades ~10%, or better, over some distance, is where added grunt goes from a want to a need. FWIW, Jarred's setup, on this bike, is the kind of conservative approach I'd use for a (somewhat) limited use road bike. It should have no problem pulling 55mph up a 10% grade.
 

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
I have been doing the mini thing since 2001 now and my thinking has evolved quite a bit since then. I find, these days, that longevity, off throttle response, tune-ability, and torque define the motors I want in my bikes. I have had takegawa 124+r with special clutch and light flywheel and while that thing ripped, I didn't like having to rev it 2500 while slipping the clutch and having it buck below 4k. Just not my style of engine. I've had 177cc YX monsters and 157cc midblock strokers and I loved the cheap power and smooth delivery, but transmissions, clutches/packs, bearings, and such deteriorated too quickly. Smooth, flat torque and real world speeds that can be held for 20 mile clips define my thinking these days. I will say I know two of the midblock strokers i built are still in use today and running excellent.

I have a lot of CT's in the garage...4 of them have nice engines in one configuration or another. Two of them sport Takegawa race heads, and they make incredible power with them....but they were built before I had my own personal epiphany...if I were to do it over again, I would have put on TJR modified stock heads...because while you may lose a little power, it wouldn't be enough to change my riding style or goals for 55mph uphill. I mean, the TRP176+r engine hits mid 80's....how often do I need that? I can cruise it all day at 60-62mph sure, but I prefer 55mph. I think i had that motor running 70mph up a 7% grade once just to see what it would do. And while it's funny to put a hurt on the ducati and CBR riders that I see on the backroads around my house because I can corner that bike like its on rails, truth is I much prefer relaxed riding. And I'd be much more relaxed knowing that the valvetrain was as solid as the rest of the engine. Its similiar to range anxiety. I had to solve that by making rear tanks, but it changes things to know you don't need to worry about fuel.
 

mikejana

Active Member
Funny how we mature in that way. My wife and I bought a 1961 Boston Whaler in 1984 when we were starving college students. Put a brand new Yamaha 130 hp motor on it when we graduated and had money. 60+mph on a really old 16'7 boat. Embarrassing go-fasters was awesome. Still have it today, but we stuffed it away to hide so the kids could get their hands on it and drive like we did.
My Honda z50 with 10 inch wheels is the one that would benefit if I can find a nice motor. Like Bob , and post epiphany Fatcaaat, 45-55 mph, uphill is perfect (only happens on a bridge down here though). I also want that usable, reliable Honda power.
My 18 year old keeps talking about an epic journey, something like Daytona to Sturgis, on our 10 inch 50's. We should be able to convince Mom to drive the chase vehicle as long as there are frequent Wholes Foods to visit on the route. His z50 is 88cc all Honda, 12 volt, TRX70 head, 4 speed and reliable. I'd like to have a plan for mine if he says "let's go!"
 
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