How do you measure your cylinder bore?

Thumper1500

New Member
I'm in-process on restoring my first ST90 and have the engine torn down most of the way so far - low compression told me I needed to. Now I'm at the point where I need to determine my next move based on the condition of the cylinder bore and piston. First, I need to figure out if the cylinder is good. The bore looks rather smooth, with no sign of scoring or anything, but I don't know if it's within spec or not. I looked online and to buy a set of bore guages and micrometer, or an inside micrometer, it looks like I would have to spend $150-$250 for something I might use 3 or 4 times. What do you guys typically do?
 

OLD CT

Well-Known Member
No need to buy the tools. Leave that to the person that will be boring it for you, like a local machine shop. They will measure and recommend the correct up sized piston. Dratv even offers machine shop services now. He would have the piston in stock!:)
 

Enginedoctor

Well-Known Member
Old Ct is right that the machine shop etc has everything, but if you'd like to add to your tool repitoire on the cheap, you can get a dial caliper that measures to .1 mm. Not super precise, but surely enough to determine overbores, which typically exist in the .25 mm increments. This way you could have a measuring tool "good enough" to save you a trip to the machine shop or post office before figuring out your options. About $50, so if you are only gonna do it once then his option is still far and away the best.
 

b52bombardier1

Well-Known Member
The trick here, if you are going to find service locally, is to find somebody competent. They should have calibrated tools to measure overall diameter, taper, and an out of round condition. And if he is really skilled, he will wait to begin his bore / hone until he has the recommended next oversize piston in hand so that he can tailor the hone to your new piston. All pistons have production tolerance differences and the tiny clearances at the cylinder wall almost demand that these differences be accounted for.

For Thumper - don't neglect your valves and valve seats at this stage of your rebuild. A new seal is also recommended. You could be losing a significant amount of compression here.

And +1 to sending the work out to Dr ATV.

Rick
 

Thumper1500

New Member
Thank you all - definitely appreciate the advice. Yes, to CJPAYNE's point, I was trying to figure out whether I needed to do anything to the bore or not first, or whether I could just get by with a new piston & rings. The old piston has a lot of carbon crust on the top, so it's probably been burning quite a bit of oil (whether from valves or past the rings) so I'd just replace it, but first need to know if I have to bore... Like I mentioned, the cylinder is very smooth, so might not?
 

Enginedoctor

Well-Known Member
Pictures help. Typically when deciding how much money to sink into a machined hole, I look at a few things.
1) top cylinder ridge: Where the top sompression ring stops at TDC in the pistons travel is a heavily worn are for a number of reasons we won't go into. If you see a noticeable ridge above this area, one you can catch your fingernail on especially, it "needs it" (a new bore and oversized piston). This ridge is usually most prominent at the 12 and 6 o clock positions of the piston, in relation to the centerline of the crankshaft/rod
2) scoring/pitting: Thouh caused by two (or more) different things, scoring, pitting or chipping (typically nikasil and not usually here) of the cylinder wall is a sure sin you need some professional help. A vertical groove in the pistons up and down travel prevents the ring from seating correctly and is a sure site for loss of compression and oil consumption. Pits or chips will do the same, and I've even seen in extreme cases (typically 2 stroke) issues where the ring can become hung up on such and area and damage the ring land, rings, and cylinder all at the same time. This is a sure fire way to send a cylinder to the scrap yard and will possibly even lock the rear tire as you practice your unicycle skills. Needs it for sure.
3) cross hatch: even with light rust staining, assuming the top two factors ARE NOT present, look for the original cross hatch in the cylinders. The hatch is only about a half thousandth (.0005") deep, maybe less, and if they're present on all surfaces, you might just be able to rebuild on the cheap (i.e. A finish hone and a set of rings). Maybe a piston if the other is less than perfect. The ,achinist can usually determine this for you. Even on cars with 100k+ miles, I've seen these marks present. If they're missing in easily distinguishable areas, the cylinder is likely oblong or out of round, and then, needs it.

Hope that helps. Buen suerte!
 

Thumper1500

New Member
Here's a pic of the cylinder - very smooth and you can see about the only score marks here, which can barely be felt with a fingernail, so very shallow. The rest is very smooth, but needs to be cross-hatched. I measured the bore with some cheaper tools - $20 for the telescoping bore guages and I already had a caliper that measures to 0.0005", so good enough (ignore the reading it shows). I measured top/mid/bottom both inline with valves and 90 degrees from there. All 6 measured at the low end of the spec, so almost no wear and there's no discernable 'ledge' at the top. I'm going to cross-hatch, replace the valves and seals, new piston/rings/pin/clips (just because I'm already in there). The valve guides are good - zero play in them. The valves were worn, especially the exhaust valve, but the seat faces were in good shape so I don't think I have to take it to a machine shop. Thanks for all the input!


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Enginedoctor

Well-Known Member
Switching to mm might help. The piston should be typically .001" SMALLER than the cylinder when it's all new on something this small. Again, pictures might not show what you're asking. SEE MY POST ABOVE and inspect in person. You can use the D internal mic, and measure it at the widest point and then measure that using the calipers, or you can use the calipers and make sure they're square in the bore and at the widest point. If it's anything more than a square number (i.e. 49.25mm as opposed to 49.0mm) it's already been overbored; if it's a full mm larger than the original bore, it's probably out of overbore and needs replacement.

Sorry bout the typo
 
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Thumper1500

New Member
I did exactly what you note and the bore is good - almost no wear - at the 'new' end of the spec in both directions. It's perfectly round - all readings were almost exactly the same. It's good to go and now I'm just waiting on the new piston/rings and the honing tool to deglaze and cross-hatch.
 
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