Can you swap the center stand for a standard kick stand?

[RickyRacer]

Happy New Year guys.... I have a 91 CT70 - Any input on loosing the center stand and opting for a kick stand? I see one for 14.95 from CHP. And I'm not sure if this is kosher asking, but as far as a good place to purchase essentials.... parts! I see this Beatrice Cycle which is also dratv... and then a place called CHP.

 

[69ST]

To that list, you can also add Northeast Vintage Cycle...a.k.a. NEVC...a.k.a. Hondanuts. They comprise "the big 3" parts vendors for small Honda owners.

As for the side stand vs center stand, yes, they can be swapped. However, only as a complete assembly. Any K0-82 should work. K0 are the easiest to find. You might need to mod your brake pedal, as part of the changeout, I've not done one of these swaps since 2001.

 

[cjpayne]

The only reason I would ever change to a centerstand is, if the dipstick would read the oil level correctly....or I was always needing to pull the rear wheel.

 

[69ST]

It'd throw off the dipstick reading, just like a sidestand...only it'd read lower rather than higher.

Nope, this one comes down to personal preference, like semi-automatic vs manual clutch, or foldable handlbears vs fixed. The one practical issue and it's a marginal one...giving that otherwise useless chromed grab handle an actual use...on a bike this small & lightweight.

 

[Roy Chambers]

It'd throw off the dipstick reading, just like a sidestand...only it'd read lower rather than higher.

Nope, this one comes down to personal preference, like semi-automatic vs manual clutch, or foldable handlbears vs fixed. The one practical issue and it's a marginal one...giving that otherwise useless chromed grab handle an actual use...on a bike this small & lightweight.

Is there a setup for both? on a K1? I wish I had both .

 

[69ST]

Is there a setup for both? on a K1? I wish I had both .

Complete center stand assemblies can still be sourced new. The OEM Honda version has to be imported, making it a tad pricey. (The `90s vintage bikes had them, as I recall...along with the AB26 model Dax.) Some Chinese clone bikes used them and those should be a lot less money, though minor mods might be required.

The easier part would be adding a sidestand assembly to a centerstand/footrest asm, as opposed to doing this the other way around. "Easy" is a relative term. If you have a little metal fab talent, the kickstand bracket is a simple piece to cut from a scrap of plate steel. You'd just transplant your OEM kickstand & mothball the remainder of your original footrest assembly. Be forewarned, cubic real estate is tighter than seems possible and quickly gets worse, as you near completion...the most likely reason why Honda never offered a side/center stand option, as they did with their fullsize offerings. Seriously, the shifter, LH footpeg, chain, swingarm, plus a center stand comprise a lot of mechanical olives to stuff into a deceptively small jar. That said, I do think that it is possible...with a bit of creative precision.

 

[Roy Chambers]

Complete center stand assemblies can still be sourced new. The OEM Honda version has to be imported, making it a tad pricey. (The `90s vintage bikes had them, as I recall...along with the AB26 model Dax.) Some Chinese clone bikes used them and those should be a lot less money, though minor mods might be required.

The easier part would be adding a sidestand assembly to a centerstand/footrest asm, as opposed to doing this the other way around. "Easy" is a relative term. If you have a little metal fab talent, the kickstand bracket is a simple piece to cut from a scrap of plate steel. You'd just transplant your OEM kickstand & mothball the remainder of your original footrest assembly. Be forewarned, cubic real estate is tighter than seems possible and quickly gets worse, as you near completion...the most likely reason why Honda never offered a side/center stand option, as they did with their fullsize offerings. Seriously, the shifter, LH footpeg, chain, swingarm, plus a center stand comprise a lot of mechanical olives to stuff into a deceptively small jar. That said, I do think that it is possible...with a bit of creative precision.

That Red bike you have, the one with the digital speedometer, does that have both ?

 

[69ST]

That Red bike you have, the one with the digital speedometer, does that have both ?

No...it had a partial center stand assembly, as-received. But, there were parts missing, what was there was worn and the deal-breaker, fixed footpegs...which are potential ankle-breakers.

If you've seen photos of that bike, in its present state, then you may have seen the tight fit with stationary buddy peg mounts. It's literally less than a typical sparkplug gap.

 

[Roy Chambers]

No...it had a partial center stand assembly, as-received. But, there were parts missing, what was there was worn and the deal-breaker, fixed footpegs...which are potential ankle-breakers.

If you've seen photos of that bike, in its present state, then you may have seen the tight fit with stationary buddy peg mounts. It's literally less than a typical sparkplug gap.

Thanks Bob. And thanks for answering the other questions on other inquires.
You do the right thing when you park your bike, like bringing up on compression, I also think that the engines like to be put up straight when at rest. I often wonder if the CT70s are getting any Oil on the side stand at warm up, most of them are bent bad and the bike is leaning way over. I try to start mine and lean it over to the right using the fence post.

Thanks Roy.

 

[69ST]

You're right about the bent kickstands of CT70s. It took me a while to decide how they were, when installed at the factory. I went by the observed lean angle, meaning that virtually every footrest assembly I've ever restored has had a session with the "blue wrench". I knew a few people who bought these bikes new, from a dealership and couldn't recall any of them having the exaggerated lean that became so commonplace 40 years later...let alone the ubiquitous 2x4 scrap seen under the kickstands of most ebay listing photos. Eventually, I got my hands on a NOS kickstand...which confirmed my educated guess.

As for the oil flow question, with a normal lean angle the sump is filled sufficiently to feed the pump and oil flows to the head. With my daily rider, the simple test is placing a hand on the oil cooler. (That engine takes .9L, I just pour-in a full quart, to compensate for the added capacity of a small cooler & its lines. I'm also super-picky about the lean angle, thus an adjustable-length kickstand has been in place since 2004.) With more typical bikes, running 49cc-based motors...which includes bone-stock machines...it's not quite so easy. The only way to positively verify top end oil flow requires removal of the lower rocker cover, which is inconvenient and a little messy. I do this with every restoration, right after initial start-up; it's the most painless way to catch oiling problems.

That said, lack of oil flow to the head does manifest as abnormally high head temperature...it's hard to ignore. ~240F, after several minutes at idle, doesn't require an IR thermometer to tell you that something is very wrong. That does takes some time to develop, at idle, and even longer to cause damage. I've seen engines run with non-working oil pumps (someone failed to index the oil pump drive shaft during assembly)...for days(!). Eventually, the cam journals ran dry, resulting in a OHV paperweight. FWIW, the entire lower end, along with the piston/rings & cylinder all survived on splash oiling. So, I imagine that you could pull the lower rocker cover, engine idling, the bike on the kickstand and have a definitive answer (I start with the cover wiped dry, then remove it after running the engine, at idle, for a few seconds)...just wear gloves, keep a rag handy and be prepared to work quickly.

 

[Roy Chambers]

No...it had a partial center stand assembly, as-received. But, there were parts missing, what was there was worn and the deal-breaker, fixed footpegs...which are potential ankle-breakers.

If you've seen photos of that bike, in its present state, then you may have seen the tight fit with stationary buddy peg mounts. It's literally less than a typical sparkplug gap.

Hi Bob, Can you direct me to the pictures of the Center stand, and I would really like to see some pictures of the Adjustable Side Stand. How do you like it and what kind is it and were do you get it and how much are they.

I have some other questions, that belong on post #10. So check that one to.

Thanks RC.

 

[Roy Chambers]

You're right about the bent kickstands of CT70s. It took me a while to decide how they were, when installed at the factory. I went by the observed lean angle, meaning that virtually every footrest assembly I've ever restored has had a session with the "blue wrench". I knew a few people who bought these bikes new, from a dealership and couldn't recall any of them having the exaggerated lean that became so commonplace 40 years later...let alone the ubiquitous 2x4 scrap seen under the kickstands of most ebay listing photos. Eventually, I got my hands on a NOS kickstand...which confirmed my educated guess.

As for the oil flow question, with a normal lean angle the sump is filled sufficiently to feed the pump and oil flows to the head. With my daily rider, the simple test is placing a hand on the oil cooler. (That engine takes .9L, I just pour-in a full quart, to compensate for the added capacity of a small cooler & its lines. I'm also super-picky about the lean angle, thus an adjustable-length kickstand has been in place since 2004.) With more typical bikes, running 49cc-based motors...which includes bone-stock machines...it's not quite so easy. The only way to positively verify top end oil flow requires removal of the lower rocker cover, which is inconvenient and a little messy. I do this with every restoration, right after initial start-up; it's the most painless way to catch oiling problems.

That said, lack of oil flow to the head does manifest as abnormally high head temperature...it's hard to ignore. ~240F, after several minutes at idle, doesn't require an IR thermometer to tell you that something is very wrong. That does takes some time to develop, at idle, and even longer to cause damage. I've seen engines run with non-working oil pumps (someone failed to index the oil pump drive shaft during assembly)...for days(!). Eventually, the cam journals ran dry, resulting in a OHV paperweight. FWIW, the entire lower end, along with the piston/rings & cylinder all survived on splash oiling. So, I imagine that you could pull the lower rocker cover, engine idling, the bike on the kickstand and have a definitive answer (I start with the cover wiped dry, then remove it after running the engine, at idle, for a few seconds)...just wear gloves, keep a rag handy and be prepared to work quickly.

How can someone not Index the Oil Pump Drive ? wouldn't the drive sprocket be out of line with the chain if the drive was not engaged into the pump?

When checking for oil verification, why do you have to work quick, your stopping the engine before removing the Rocker Cap, Right ?

Last question, on some other post you and another guy said, that when you used Valvoline oil, instead of the Honda GN4 oil, it shifted better! What Valvoline oil were you referring to, The Car racing oil of some kind of Motorcycle oil?

Thanks Roy.

 

[cjpayne]

Last question, on some other post you and another guy said, that when you used Valvoline oil, instead of the Honda GN4 oil, it shifted better! What Valvoline oil were you referring to, The Car racing oil of some kind of Motorcycle oil?

Thanks Roy.

Valvoline MC wet clutch 10w40. Here NEA Oklahoma, I use the 20w50 for new motor break in's and when it gets extremely hot outside(above 100F). Just recently they changed the container and it says NOTHING about the zinc content, so I called them and the tech guy said that the marketing people changed the container, but the formula was the same. I've been thinking of trying the Lucas stuff, but dont really want to experiment on my HK1, so I think I might try it on my brothers beat up K3.LOL

 

[69ST]

Last question, on some other post you and another guy said, that when you used Valvoline oil, instead of the Honda GN4 oil, it shifted better! What Valvoline oil were you referring to, The Car racing oil of some kind of Motorcycle oil?

Credit where it's due...that input was courtesy of of Mr cjpayne. He tested it first. I was just looking for something cheaper than GN4, to use for the initial break-in and Autozone had it on sale for something like $2.50/quart. Then, I forgot to bring an extra quart on vacation and Valvoline was the only MC oil I could get so, I figured a couple hundred miles wouldn't matter and better to have clean oil. I agree with Chett, shift feel is ever-so-slightly improved. I still run 20W50 GN4 as my bike is run hard and I am strictly a fair-weather rider. My approach to oilhas always been to select viscosity based on the highest peak operating temperature...which is usually ~95-105C, in 80-95F ambient air temp.

FYI, oil formulations have been revised big time as of last year. That's one reason why I'm sticking with GN4. I expect that most JASO-spec/wet clutch compatible motorcycle oils are still okay. NEVER use automotive oil in these engines...you'll end up with a slipping clutch, due the friction modifiers and burnt shift forks, due to lack of zinc. Rotella is now no longer recommended for any gasoline engine...especially bike engines. IMHO, might be worth trying Motul if 20W50 flavor is available.

When checking for oil verification, why do you have to work quick, your stopping the engine before removing the Rocker Cap, Right ?

Yes I meant with the engine running...and it'd be an extremely brief, one-time-only test. Trust me on this one, it is possible to install an oil pump with the drive shaft not engaged. I remove the gerotor assembly cover to verify shaft engagement...and look for oil flow to the head, afterward. Sometimes, you'll get oil flow just by kicking-over the engine, sometimes, however, it can take a long time prime the top end oil circuit. The simplest test is removal of the lower rocker cover, engine not running. If there's oil in it, everything is fine. If not, time to find out why and if any correction is needed.

Hi Bob, Can you direct me to the pictures of the Center stand, and I would really like to see some pictures of the Adjustable Side Stand. How do you like it and what kind is it and were do you get it and how much are they.

I never used the OEM centerstand. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that point. As for the adjustable sidestand, the one I used is NLA...which sucks. I believe that either Takegawa, or G`Craft still offer them...billet aluminum bike jewelry. There's always the lathe & TIG method, a.k.a. fabbing your own.

 

[Roy Chambers]

Credit where it's due...that input was courtesy of of Mr cjpayne. He tested it first. I was just looking for something cheaper than GN4, to use for the initial break-in and Autozone had it on sale for something like $2.50/quart. Then, I forgot to bring an extra quart on vacation and Valvoline was the only MC oil I could get so, I figured a couple hundred miles wouldn't matter and better to have clean oil. I agree with Chett, shift feel is ever-so-slightly improved. I still run 20W50 GN4 as my bike is run hard and I am strictly a fair-weather rider. My approach to oilhas always been to select viscosity based on the highest peak operating temperature...which is usually ~95-105C, in 80-95F ambient air temp.

FYI, oil formulations have been revised big time as of last year. That's one reason why I'm sticking with GN4. I expect that most JASO-spec/wet clutch compatible motorcycle oils are still okay. NEVER use automotive oil in these engines...you'll end up with a slipping clutch, due the friction modifiers and burnt shift forks, due to lack of zinc. Rotella is now no longer recommended for any gasoline engine...especially bike engines. IMHO, might be worth trying Motul if 20W50 flavor is available.


Yes I meant with the engine running...and it'd be an extremely brief, one-time-only test. Trust me on this one, it is possible to install an oil pump with the drive shaft not engaged. I remove the gerotor assembly cover to verify shaft engagement...and look for oil flow to the head, afterward. Sometimes, you'll get oil flow just by kicking-over the engine, sometimes, however, it can take a long time prime the top end oil circuit. The simplest test is removal of the lower rocker cover, engine not running. If there's oil in it, everything is fine. If not, time to find out why and if any correction is needed.



I never used the OEM centerstand. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that point. As for the adjustable sidestand, the one I used is NLA...which sucks. I believe that either Takegawa, or G`Craft still offer them...billet aluminum bike jewelry. There's always the lathe & TIG method, a.k.a. fabbing your own.

Thanks to Both of you!

Yes, the Oil is getting to be a big deal. I used that Rotella Diesel Oil for years in my own Gas powered Car and Truck.
It was the last oil that you could just buy off the shelf with the Zinc & Molly in it. It is no longer in it though.

We sell thees 4oz bottles of Howard Cam ZPM Oil supplement for Cam break-in, and I use to put it in my own Car on Oil changes for a wile. I stopped putting it in when two different oil manufactures told me that it did not mix in right with the oil. Never did get a clear answer of why.

My brother uses that Motul stuff, but boy, it is high dollar.

Wish I could see one picture of that adjustable side stand, to give me an idea of how to make it.

Thanks Roy.

 

[69ST]

I'll see if I have a detail shot, bike is in hibernation at present.