CT70 out of storage!

Adam-NLV

Well-Known Member
I hope the Front Brake stopping power will be enough with the 12" Rim, i guess It should be fine for around here.;)
Gonna wash the bike, remove all dirt, drain the gas....
Here's the bike's Before picture. :eek:Crazy Heat & windy weather forecast, so the bike will have to be worked on inside.(y)

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Adam-NLV

Well-Known Member
A better question is, how would it affect braking and why?

Answer: It has to affect braking because a bigger rim and a bigger tire equates to more mass and the more rotating mass you have, the more braking force is gonna be needed, to stop the rotation of that brake-hub. It was initially designed for a 10" rim & 10" tire doing 35 mph.

Now i have the 12" rim & 12" tire plus a new speed of ~maybe 55 mph. That's why i hope the stock brake set-up will stop the bike in good time and with no help from dragging my shoe.:LOL: ;)
 
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69ST

Well-Known Member
a bigger rim and a bigger tire equates to more mass and the more rotating mass you have
How are you defining "bigger"? To me, that means taller/larger diameter...and with it a bigger circumference. Your 12" tires may be a little taller. The bike is limited to ~20" OD tires, rim diameter is completely irrelevant. Go much beyond that tire diameter, and you run the risk of tire-to-chassis interference should the suspension ever be pushed near the compression limit. Thus, with stock fork & swingarm, tire circumference is limited to ~62", roughly 10% bigger than nominal stock tire size. Increasing circumference is also self-balancing...it decreases wheel rpm, proportionately.

How much more rotating mass, tire + rim do you now have, compared to the stock Trailwings, tubes & steel rims? `Wings are lightweight tires. But, there are tubes that must be used with them and those steel rims are not light. The short answer is "not much", in terms of braking effects. The only thing you might notice, with heavier wheel assemblies, is that the suspension feels a little sluggish, comparatively. If you haven't noticed that, then the braking impact is so small the difference is academic...if that.

What's the gross weight of bike + rider now and what was it with the stock shoes in place? That's the better question...because

p=mv

That's the formula that matters: momentum = mass x velocity.

When you throw out the anchor, the brakes have to scrub-off forward momentum by turning it into waste heat. So, you start with something like 300lbs of GVW (bike + rider) and even if the new tire + wheel assemblies are a porcine 5lbs heavier than stock, adding 10lbs mass to GVW is a whopping 3% change. The brakes will never "know it". For that matter, if you could cut wheel mass in half, that wouldn't affect braking, in any meaningful way...it would only reduce the workload of the suspension.

At 55mph, you're going to have to twist the engine close to 11,000rpm. At that speed, the pumping losses will be huge...compression braking will be very effective. Just closing the throttle will scrub-off 5-10mph almost instantly. Remember, I ran stock drums on a 65mph bike. They started working okay around 55mph, below 50mph they were acceptable...even with a passenger + rider.
 

Adam-NLV

Well-Known Member
Glad to hear that a stock hub still works well above 35 mph and to 55 , i just wasn't sure. ;)

The one thing i really noticed when going to the 12" Tires was how the bike now handles like a motorcycle. Part of the reason for that change is the tire's larger diameter creates more centrifugal force and that really helps in the cornering department.

The bigger Diameter wheels generate more centrifugal force and that improves handling, But...I did notice that the bike stopped quicker with the 10 inch stock tires vs the newer 12" rims. :whistle:
It Should be all good and the disk brake option is there if needed.:coffee:
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
The one thing i really noticed when going to the 12" Tires was how the bike now handles like a motorcycle. Part of the reason for that change is the tires larger diameter creates more centrifugal force and that really helps in the cornering department.

The handling improvements are real...the result of going from a knobby to road tread. You now have twice as much rubber meeting the road and none of the tread squirm of the Trailwings. It's got F/A to do with tire & wheel mass. The best handling bikes I've ridden all had lightweight wheel assemblies, fitted with sticky Heidenau K61 tires. Heavy wheel assemblies deliver one improvement...better straight-line stability at speeds above 50mph. That's where the gyroscopic effect becomes noticeable.

You might want to try separating the objective from the subjective. Mark-out, say, a 10-mile route with a car; then cover that same route with your bike. Compare the indicated mileages. A 10-mile test route makes it very easy to work out the error percentage. There's no way to change the speedo drive ratio so, if tire size is changed substantially, you'll have correspondingly large speedometer & odometer error percentages. Braking distances should be comparable; if anything they should be a little shorter. But subjectively, i.e. seat-of-the-pants dyno, results might differ.

Unless your drum brakes are operating below their potential, there's not as much stopping distance improvement possible as you might think. An hydraulic front disc brake will have better feel and require a lot less lever effort. There won't be much braking distance improvement below 50mph. I'll say this, 12" wheels make fitment of a 220mm disc brake a lot easier than it is with 10" wheels. Unless you're looking to replace the entire OEM front end, a disc brake conversion might not be worth what it takes.
 

Adam-NLV

Well-Known Member
The handling improvements are real...the result of going from a knobby to road tread. You now have twice as much rubber meeting the road and none of the tread squirm of the Trailwings. It's got F/A to do with tire & wheel mass. The best handling bikes I've ridden all had lightweight wheel assemblies, fitted with sticky Heidenau K61 tires. Heavy wheel assemblies deliver one improvement...better straight-line stability at speeds above 50mph. That's where the gyroscopic effect becomes noticeable.

.
You just proved my point Bob ;)Agreed, twice as much rubber meeting the road, means you better be able to stop that twice as much rubber meeting the road or the larger rotating mass, (12" rim & Tire) . So beefing up your brakes don't seem too outrageous to me..!:geek:

But...Better straight line stability? True but Please...I disagree..It has everything to do with better cornering stability and performance. That 'rotating mass' as you pointed out (or i did).... that rotation does provide a gyroscopic force or centrifugal force, either way you think about it but that is the force that lets you pitch the bike or lean the bike down, at speed without joining the latest roadkill.

That's where all the fun is in driving a motorcycle to me, it's the cornering and finding that perfect blend of Earth's Gravity, pulling you in and your two Two large rotating Wheels with their gyroscopic magic, is pulling you out or providing the lift that's keeping your bike from falling over and joining the roadkill.

IMHO or To me, driving a motorcycle is like surfing on dry pavement, only the Air above is the Wave and the Earth is the Ocean. You want to ride the wave (or the road) somewhere in between. You can't do as much of that with the 10" rims.:cool:
 
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Adam-NLV

Well-Known Member
Unless your drum brakes are operating below their potential, there's not as much stopping distance improvement possible as you might think. An hydraulic front disc brake will have better feel and require a lot less lever effort. There won't be much braking distance improvement below 50mph. I'll say this, 12" wheels make fitment of a 220mm disc brake a lot easier than it is with 10" wheels. Unless you're looking to replace the entire OEM front end, a disc brake conversion might not be worth what it takes.

Oh contraire~ my friend, here is a 1977 CT70 with a disk brake conversion that i did and can use on my 91' if i should so choose. It doesn't look too much different than the stock 91' Trail Bike's front.
I can even add the fold down bars!:p ...i may do that, will see.

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It has the L110 e-start on it now.
 
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69ST

Well-Known Member
You just proved my point Bob ;)Agreed, twice as much rubber meeting the road, means you better be able to stop that twice as much rubber meeting the road or the larger rotating mass, (12" rim & Tire) . So beefing up your brakes don't seem too outrageous to me..!

Adam, you have a really nice machine and it's more capable, as it sits, than you seem to think. It's your bike, every change is your call, alone, to make. Exactly what has been proved, as yet? There are no numbers, only undocumented assumptions/assertions. I'm not here to prove anything. I am here to share knowledge and experience, gained over decades (and a few miles in the saddle ;)) that few have.
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At this point, I'm thinking more for those who may be following along with this and what some of them may base decisions upon. Without hard, quantifiable parameters, i.e. critical numbers, it's all based on feelings. The dynamics of riding are applied physics, in the real world...and without science to accurately understand the effects of changes, it's meaningless, relying on blind luck at best. At worst someone gets hurt.

Increasing braking capability is a good thing, up to a point. Asserting that increased traction, via road tires, will somehow increase stopping distance is absurd.
Let's take the feelings out of this part of the conversation and deal with hard numbers:
  • Tire OD & circumference
  • Tire weight
  • Wheel weight
  • Weight of the tire/hub/wheel assembly
  • Speedometer indicated speed & indicated mileage (odometer readings) before (OEM tires & wheels) and after (current tires & wheels)
  • Current sprocket combo
  • Braking numbers (speed-to-dead stop) in actual distance, or at least time.
Without most of those, what are we really discussing?
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
Oh contraire~ my friend, here is a 1977 CT70 with a disk brake conversion that i did and can use on my 91' if i should so choose. It doesn't look too much different than the stock 91' Trail Bike's front.
I can even add the fold down bars!:p ...i may do that, will see.

View attachment 67611.
Where's the speedo drive, speedometer, headlight and turn signals?

I am familiar with that front end. The fork action is nowhere near as competent as your OEM 12v era fork. The ~130mm disc is nothing I'd run. IMO, if a disc brake is needed, 220mm rotor and twin-piston caliper, OEM Honda stuff is the way to go. Those aftermarket HL mounts are nicer than OE and, as you know, I'm in the folding handlebar camp they add a lot of classic CT70 flavor back to the `79 later models...along with utility.
 

Adam-NLV

Well-Known Member
Where's the speedo drive, speedometer, headlight and turn signals?

I am familiar with that front end. The fork action is nowhere near as competent as your OEM 12v era fork. The ~130mm disc is nothing I'd run. IMO, if a disc brake is needed, 220mm rotor and twin-piston caliper, OEM Honda stuff is the way to go. Those aftermarket HL mounts are nicer than OE and, as you know, I'm in the folding handlebar camp they add a lot of classic CT70 flavor back to the `79 later models...along with utility.
I know you have a lot of saddle miles and time on your Great machine and that's awesome. Do you run 12" Tires & Disk brakes or the stock10" tires and brake hubs?

Btw: I have all that missing stuff in 77' or 91'flavor. But I would just use my 91 signals & headlight with the HL mounts. I have no issues with the front shocks, they work Great. :)

As far as what are we really discussing?

My initial concern was about compromised braking distance, after adding a bigger piston displacement & bigger Rims & Tires!
But, As i said earlier...It Should be all good and the disk brake option is there if needed;)
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
I know you have a lot of saddle miles and time on your Great machine and that's awesome. Do you run 12" Tires & Disk brakes or the stock10" tires and brake hubs?

Neither, there's not a single CT70 wheel part on the bike, and that was one of my points. Most of the front end pieces I designed & engineered, then had CNC machined locally. A few of them I either machined personally, or custom-fabbed.

Since 2000, I've systematically worked to upgrade virtually every aspect of the bike. Some of the upgrades took years to reach a successful conclusion, along with stupid amounts of time & money. It also involved throwing-out a lot of my own work. At this late date, I could probably list all of the stock parts on my red bike...on a matchbook. That's quite a bank of experiential knowledge, nearly all of it offered-up for free. It wasn't done to make money, the market for high-end customs in the US of A is minuscule, my time limited. For me, a prime motivator has been "lessons learned, lessons shared"...coming up on 15 years worth here and close to a decade co-administrating the erstwhile UK board, beginning in 2001. If I don't know something, I'll say so...or step aside and let someone else who's more knowledgeable on that topic take over. OTOH, if I see someone headed down the wrong path, it's just not my nature to let it go, unremarked. Take it or leave it, I'll at least put the facts out there.

4-5 years ago, I was seriously preparing to have billet aluminum rims produced; the amount of research that involved most would find mind-numbing...and about as interesting as watching paint dry. It yielded data that most will never have, and few would ever care about. For a customizer/builder some of it may be useful. If we go by the numbers, everyone gets a clear, apples-to-apples, comparison. There will likely be a few surprises but they'll be pleasant ones.

I did run stock brakes & hubs for the first 3K miles. Only thing I didn't like was how they performed at 55mph+, while riding with a passenger aboard. Riding solo, never had any issue(s). Getting back down to 50mph, via compression braking, became part of my riding technique, second-nature almost. For me, bike + rider has always been a good 50-60lbs heavier than you're dealing with....and that's riding solo. Tires & wheels, on one of these bikes, can't make anywhere near that kind of difference.

Of course you can upgrade to a disc brake, anytime you like. You will face two issues: suspension quality and speedo drive/speedo accuracy. Getting OEM level, or better, front suspension and a disc brake isn't cheap, but is still possible. The speedo input error has no solution. No one makes an aftermarket speedo drive with the factory ratio. Cutting to the chase, you will end up with indicated speed being less than actual...same with the odometer. Few things are more frustrating to a gearhead. That's why I went to an electronic speedometer, when I'm not a fan of digital gauges. With a road bike, accuracy matters.

The main reason for running 12" wheels...because you like the look. If your local roads are in decent shape, they'll be fine. Around here, you'd have your fillings rattled loose, before ultimately having one, or both, damaged. That extra inch of sidewall height protects the rim and adds compliance to the ride quality.

If you're interested in a by-the-numbers comparison of your wheel/tire combo, just plug-in as many of the numbers listed previously and I'll post the math here. If not, "vaya con huevos" ;)
 

Adam-NLV

Well-Known Member
I'm not questioning your experience and wasn't aware of your extensive R&D on Al rims.

But the main reason I'm running the 12" AL wheels is not just because of their looks,:rolleyes:

I did a lot of work assembling my rims and getting the Kenra Tires mounted on em, not to mention, painting the rims too. I didn't do that for vanity, for F' sake I got the bigger 12" rims & tires to improve handling and cornering, which has and this Trail bike has really come alive with the new wheels and now handles like a real motorcycle and not a mini bike. The roads here are good, and the rims have been just fine. The upgrade to 88 cc's can only improve this motorbike, i would think.:cool:.
 
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69ST

Well-Known Member
Get ready to be afraid...very afraid.;)

I like the overall aesthetic of your bike, the mods are tasteful & restrained...very much OEM-like. IOW, they look like they belong together, as if they were there when the bike left the production line, including the 12' wheel/tire combo. There's not a single change you've made with which I'd disagree. And, the machine is immaculate. I do wonder if you're going end up a little bit underwhelmed with the seat-of-the-pants power curve of the 88cc bore-up but, you can't wrong with it. From one gearhead to another, projects are never truly finished, the time between changes may get longer and that's about it. The pursuit of improvements, in search of perfection, rarely ends until acted upon by an outside force, which is a polite way of saying "only visible in hindsight". It's all about the effect/result (a.k.a. "what"); imho, understanding the cause (a.k.a. "why") is essential to keep things progressing, extremely helpful when it's time for the next change.

F the sake of discussion, let's say that that you went with the aftermarket tire/rim combo because of the aesthetics. What's wrong with that? If you prefer the look of combo, it's a success. Improvement is improvement.

In terms of functional differences, I've had the unique experience of 5 different tire/wheel combos on the same bike: stock rims & tires, stock rims + 120/90-10 Michelin tires, G`Craft rims + wide (120/70 & 130/70-10) K61 Heidenau tires, Daytona tubeless rims + ML series Bridegstone road tires (4.00-10), Kitaco tubeless cast alloy rims + ML tires. The G`Craft Dax rims are the lightest until the wheel stars are added. The Daytonas weigh less than on stock rim half. The Kitaco rims are slightly heavier than stock. In terms of tire weight, Trailwings are the lightweight champs, followed by the Heidenaus & Michelins. The Bridgestones are downright porkly...like twice the mass of Trailwings.

Frankly, the biggest difference is just going from the knobby tread to road tread...night & day. You get tread to support any lean angle and without the buzzing/howling, at speed, of `Wings. The rest of the differences, on dry pavement, are subtle, meaning one can't really go wrong with a decent road tire, on a road-operated, bike. :red70:
 
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