Honda Nice 110 Tuning

I'm having trouble getting my engine dialed in. Stock Honda Nice 110cc, with a VM20 carb. Intake is matched (or very close to it), so no big-small port transitions. From what I've been told or read, people seem to settle around a 150 main jet. Right now I'm running a 22.5 pilot, 155 main, clip in the center position on the needle. It seems to rev out decently in first through third. The issue I'm seeing is 4th gear just seems "flat". It'll hold around 50 mph, maybe a little more on the flats, but when I come to a hill, I seem to run out of power, and fast...

I guess for reference, I'm running 16/31 gearing. Hotlap exhaust, K&N filter. I weigh around 190 lbs. When I got the bike, it had a VM22 on it. If I recall, it would hold power on the hills better. The issue I had with that carb was getting it dialed so that at wide open throttle it wouldn't buck/cut out (rich, I think). I'd been told a VM20 is alot easier to dial in, and so that's where I'm at. I do still have the 22...

Thanks in advance to anyone who responds.
 

OLD CT

Well-Known Member
Sounds like a gearing issue, Maybe it will respond better/hold speed with a 33 out back, in fourth.
Finding one is tough these days, webikes japan has it. Takegawa brand.
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
With a 56.5" tire circumference (new Trailwing), 17/31 is dead-on. That gives you ~7.4mph/1000rpm in 4th gear - 60mph comes up right at the 8Krpm mark and 3rd can be wrung-out to ~50mph, on long grades. The undersquare/desaxe configuration, of this lump, delivers a broad, flat, power curve and seat-of-the-pants torque that seems impossible for the smallish displacement. The tradeoff is the lack of a high-rpm peak and that doesn't play well with shorter-than-optimal gearing...all you'll get is lowered speed in each gear, including a needlessly "busy" 4th gear. Measure the rolling circumference of your rear tire, then divide that number by 56.5; that'll give a precise value for your tire size, expressed as a percentage. Exact gearing can be easily calculated from that.

The fact that it once pulled you along more convincingly, with that same sprocket combo fairly screams "less-than-optimal carb jetting". Dropping-down to a VM20 should not impact pulling power. IMO, time to try some different jet needle heights. I'd test the top & bottom C-clip positions...that'll "bracket" the range. If it won't rev-out cleanly with the needle in the richest (clip in the bottom groove) position, then it's worth trying the next smaller jet size, jet needle in the richest position...then work your way back in the lean direction, once groove at a time, until your pulling power is recovered.

FWIW, I'm still running the same VM22 but, it's an anomaly. The phenolic spacer is between the intake & head...needed for clearance. That does make a difference...to the tune of one jet size; throttle response degrades noticeably below 70F ambient air temp. There's a 170 main jet installed and it takes throttle like no other such combo I've run across. I've tuned a goodly number of them over the past decade-and-a-half. Most have needed either a #150 or #160. The VM22 never was easy to dial-in. At most, there'd be two main jet sizes and two jet needle clip positions that would work and one would be clearly better. At one time, I could re-profile the jet needle to tune-out 85-90% of the transient low-rpm/light-throttle lean spot, by taking ~0.0015" off the corresponding section, and get it as close to optimal as possible in two or three stages. If that doesn't qualify as "bee-otch" to tune, fear not...E10 pump gas raised the challenge by another order of magnitude. It is now impossible to realize 100% seamless throttle reponse across the range. That's why, IMO, the VM20 is the better choice. It could very well turn out that #140 is the ideal main jet for yours; I'd just want to start out on the rich side, then work toward the lean direction one step at a time...unless one has access to a portable EGA fitted with a wideband O2 sensor.

As for CT70 wheel sprockets, I can source just about any tooth count from 28t-up. Some are kinda pricey. They range from about $30 to $60 a pop, depending upon the tooth count. I've converted to a Z50-type drum brake hub that uses CT70 rubber dampers. Z50 sprockets are easier to source. However, the entire setup, including the brake conversion takes some custom fabrication work and runs the bottom line close to $300...equivalent of 5-10 sprockets.
 
So I measured my rear tire circumference...53.5". As a percentage=95%.

So am I understanding this correctly? Start with my needle in the richest position and leave it, only changing mains until it revs out cleanly. After that, adjust the needle with the main I found to work, until my pulling power is restored?

Thanks for the help, guys.
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
Your bike is grossly under-geared. 3% is noticeable, 5% is annoying....you're 12% under, that's huge, though it might not seem so it, in text. However, this motor works best geared for 7.4mph/1000rpm...your setup works out to 6.5mph/1000rpm, in 4th gear. 8000rpm is only giving you 52mph...you should be able to sustain that speed, until the tank runs dry...at 7000rpm. These motors can easily pull low 60s, on the flat, and push 65mph under ideal conditions. Yours is gonna run out of breath and revs right around 58/59mph.

Okay, gearing by the numbers:

17/31 = 1.8235, the optimal road gearing with a 56.5" tire.
53.5/56.5 = .9469
1.8235 x .9469 = 1.7266, the sprocket ratio needed to match the desired revs per mile with your 53.5" tire.
18 x 1.7266 = 31.0788
17 x 1.7266 = 29.3522

Closest sprocket combos are 18/31 and 17/29. Those are edge city, imho. 18 & 29t sprockets are both hard to find...and...involve clearance issues. At the 30t, there's a good chance that the dust shield will get partially chewed by the chain. At 29t, I dunno how much of the plastic will survive. Chain-to-hub clearance will also be marginal. (28t requires machining a clearance shoulder). 18t will fit the Nice, but it's tight; you'll need to remove a section from the C/S cover/chainguard. No worries there; it doesn't hurt anything and you'll know how much to remove...when the noise ceases.


With the carb tuning, you've missed the fundamental point. This is trial & error testing...change something, go for a test run, note the results...repeat as necessary until you get the best results. The process is known, by engineers, as "bracketing"; that means finding the lean and rich limits. Once those are known, the overall range is thus "bracketed" between the two extremes. Since the `80s, air:fuel ratios have been used, directly. From idle through ~1/4 throttle, sustained cruising, the ideal is 14.7:1. Sustained high-speed cruising and at greater throttle openings, the mixture should be gradually richened into the 13s. At WOT, 12.5-12.8:1 is needed to keep temps under control. Getting a migraine? Relax, this is where things become simple & straightforward.

You don't need to find the lean limit; the engine will fall on its face. The rich limit is clear...the engine will act as though the valves are floating. And, dropping 1-2 steps below the rich limit, the point at which the engine will rev-out cleanly, will typically produce the desired 12.5-12.8:1 A:F ratio at WOT. At that point, you're not going to burn parts; so the rest comes down to smoothing-out the midrange, via main jet size/jet needle height combination. IOW, finding the rich limit serves as the poor man's exhaust gas analyzer, in realtime...and it's remarkably accurate.

What you're going to do is a series of test runs. Start with, say, your #150 main and the jet needle in the richest position. Take the bike for a test run, WOT. If the engine revs-out cleanly, go up one jet size and repeat the process. If it goes into rich misfire, then change the jet needle clip height instead. You can either try one groove at a time...or raising it to the middle...or to the top. Working one groove at a time is more precise, from the get-go, but more time-consuming. If you choose to start out with bigger changes, then you'll have to work in the reverse direction, once you find the rich limit. The fly in the proverbial ointment is that whatever main you start off with may be either too big or too small; hence, the bigger initial steps can point you in the right direction a little quicker.

Jet needle position does affect WOT mixture with this carburetor. There is a slight possibility that you'll end up having to choose between two jet sizes...the bigger one with a lean jet needle setting or the smaller with a rich jet needle setting. Start with the basics...finding the biggest main jet that will allow the engine to rev-out cleanly, then working in single steps leaner. Once the rich limit is found you'll be within one jet size and 1-2 needle height settings, of ideal.
 
It's been a while, and I haven't had much time to mess with, or even ride this bike lately. I'm not a big fan of the tires on the bike, so may try to source some closer to stock circumference. I did take it for a 30 mile ride a few weeks ago, air temps in the 80's (83°F or so). Mostly flat, and not wide open throttle, just cruising around 50 mph. With the new thermometer dipstick from Bob, I was curious to see what temps I would see. Front fender is in the stock position (not low/Dax configuration), and no oil cooler right now. After 15-20 minutes into my ride, temps were spiking between 115-120°C. I backed it way down, and even stopped for a bit, and tried to keep temps below 110° for the rest of the ride, limping it home. A cooler would obviously help me, but I suspect my jetting is also a culprit?
 
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