1RiverRocket
New Member
What type of oil is BEST to run in a Lifan 110cc for overall performance in HOT Florida weather?
Thanks in advance
Thanks in advance
Oil Type Lifan 110cc (350 miles)
- Thread starter 1RiverRocket
- Start date
I'm using Shell Rotella-T 15W-40. About 8-10 bucks a gallon (5 oil changes), and is compatible with the wet clutch. A lot of motorcyclists use Rotella-T for their cycles because it is much less expensive than motorcycle specific oils, yet provides excellent protection because it is formulated for HD Diesel engine service.
The "best oil" gets more discussion than just about any other topic. Rotella T is supposed to be very good oil, however, according to a couple of automotive engineers I know, the diesel formula supposedly lacks anti-foaming additives. If it turned into whipped froth over 2400rpm, as I've been told, you'd probably know about it by now. Just shows to go ya'...
The best oil is clean oil. There are a lot of decent bike-specific oils out there. As long as you run the right viscosity for the motor and don't burn it from overheating (in which case you'd probably need an oil cooler and some serious tuning) or let it become laden with clutch debris it should pretty well be a non-issue. Supposedly, AMSoil is the best, but at $10/quart just about anything else seems cheap.
The best oil is clean oil. There are a lot of decent bike-specific oils out there. As long as you run the right viscosity for the motor and don't burn it from overheating (in which case you'd probably need an oil cooler and some serious tuning) or let it become laden with clutch debris it should pretty well be a non-issue. Supposedly, AMSoil is the best, but at $10/quart just about anything else seems cheap.
I agree, "best oil" is a hot topic of debate! The only concern of Rotella-T is the possible lack of anti-foaming agents because the oil is formulated for low revving diesel applications. When I drove a VW Rabbit Diesel, I was told the same thing because the little 1.6L SOHC VW Diesel revved a lot higher than other automotive diesels at the time. (a whole 4900 rpm at the governed limit) The engine ran 240K miles, and I sold it running well. Granted, 8K in a motorcycle is a lot more than 5K in an automotive Diesel, but there are a heckuva lot of mc riders that use Rotella-T without any issues. Some say it is a marketing plan to sell mc specific oils and make more money, some say that mc specific oils are the way to go. Who's right? I don't know. If I had a Ducati or BMW, I'd probably feed it the best mc oil I could find. But for my Lifan or old japanese standards the Rotella-T seems to be just fine. I know some guys who run regular automotive motor oil in their bikes. No problems with the clutch, even though the friction modifiers were supposed to cause slipping. Maybe it is different from manufacturer to manufacturer depending on the composition of the clutch friction material.
Like racerx said, the best oil is clean oil - I think we can all agree on that!
Like racerx said, the best oil is clean oil - I think we can all agree on that!
Miniac
Member
Most (dare I say all?) modern diesels are turbocharged, and you can rest assured that the turbo, which is lubricated by the engine oil, is spinning considerably faster than our CT70s. It ain't our daddy's diesel oil any more. The added benefit of diesel oils is the higher zinc content; zinc being the last line of defense before metal to metal contact occurs. Catalytic converters don't like zinc (and neither do the dreaded greenies, but I'm not going there) so the oil for our family sedans has had most of the zinc removed from it's formulation. (Thank goodness we don't have to worry about cats on our CTs.) Add the fact that commercial diesels typically run hotter than gasoline engines, and go for longer intervals between changes, and it certainly makes a strong case for the suitability of diesel oils for use in air cooled motorcycle engines. Based on that, and on personal experience I have no trouble seconding arcee's recommendation on the Rotella-T, or Mobil Delvac, or most any other quality diesel oil.
But here, . . . let me stoke the fires of controversy a bit more. It gets a little bit warm here where I live; 97F today, with a mere 70% humidity, and this is typical all summer long. You can just about smell the oil burning as you idle at a traffic light. Years ago, based primarily on the desire to use an oil that would tolerate the highest engine temps, I made the switch to 100% synthetic oil in all my motorcycles ('cept for the beaters) and have never had a lick of trouble with it. I know that some folks cuss the stuff, and swear that they have had nothing but trouble with it, but I've never had a complaint. My '95 Triumph has 38,000 miles on it and has had nothing but synthetics in it for the last 10 years. In fact, the factory service manual (currently resting on my lap, turned to page 2.15) requires semi-synthetic, and recommends fully synthetic motor oil, API-SG or better.
OK, go ahead, . . . flame me. I'm thick skinned, I can take it.
-kevin
(Hey arcee, you'll appreciate this, . . . I even run Mobil1 15W-50 in my '82 VW Rabbit Diesel Pick-Up. It's showing ~250,000 miles on the odometer, and the odo didn't work from '90, when I got it, to '99, when I finally fixed it. Yeah, diesel is high, but I'm still getting over 40mpg. If worse comes to worse I guess I could always run it on Crisco! <HA>)
The added benefit of diesel oils is the higher zinc content; zinc being the last line of defense before metal to metal contact occurs. Catalytic converters don't like zinc (and neither do the dreaded greenies, but I'm not going there) so the oil for our family sedans has had most of the zinc removed from it's formulation. (Thank goodness we don't have to worry about cats on our CTs.) Add the fact that commercial diesels typically run hotter than gasoline engines, and go for longer intervals between changes, and it certainly makes a strong case for the suitability of diesel oils for use in air cooled motorcycle engines. Based on that, and on personal experience I have no trouble seconding arcee's recommendation on the Rotella-T, or Mobil Delvac, or most any other quality diesel oil.But here, . . . let me stoke the fires of controversy a bit more. It gets a little bit warm here where I live; 97F today, with a mere 70% humidity, and this is typical all summer long. You can just about smell the oil burning as you idle at a traffic light. Years ago, based primarily on the desire to use an oil that would tolerate the highest engine temps, I made the switch to 100% synthetic oil in all my motorcycles ('cept for the beaters) and have never had a lick of trouble with it. I know that some folks cuss the stuff, and swear that they have had nothing but trouble with it, but I've never had a complaint. My '95 Triumph has 38,000 miles on it and has had nothing but synthetics in it for the last 10 years. In fact, the factory service manual (currently resting on my lap, turned to page 2.15) requires semi-synthetic, and recommends fully synthetic motor oil, API-SG or better.
OK, go ahead, . . . flame me. I'm thick skinned, I can take it.
-kevin
(Hey arcee, you'll appreciate this, . . . I even run Mobil1 15W-50 in my '82 VW Rabbit Diesel Pick-Up. It's showing ~250,000 miles on the odometer, and the odo didn't work from '90, when I got it, to '99, when I finally fixed it. Yeah, diesel is high, but I'm still getting over 40mpg. If worse comes to worse I guess I could always run it on Crisco! <HA>)
I run whatever cheap "house brand" SAE-30 dino oil I can find in all of my CTs. As far as I'm concerned, even the cheap oil of today's technology is as good or better than what the factory fill on these bikes was back in the 60's and 70's. My only requirements are that it be a detergent oil, and that it is virgin (non recycled) oil. Like racerx pointed out, the best oil is clean oil, and at less than 2 bucks and 2 minutes for an oil change, there's really no excuse not to keep it clean.
Miniac
Member
That's a really good point, fly. The API-SE classification went into effect in '71, and API-SF came along in '81, so the SE cert covered most of the CTs we are playing with. Some of the stuff on the shelf in my garage right now carries an API-SM rating. Oil has evolved and, for the most part, improved. (Tho' I'm sure that some would question that.) Heck, the original design of the engine family that became the CT70 was done at a time when people were still arguing over the merits of adding detergents to motor oil. And since there aren't too many CT lovers putting 15,000 miles a year on their bike the oil change interval is probably better determined by a calendar than by the odometer. The oil is probably not even being "used up."
Good insight.
But I'll still run synthetic. I'm so anal!
-kevin
I think the crankshaft whipping around in the crankcase is the concern with oil foaming, and not so much the high speed turbo bearing. (but I could be wrong)
As far as synthetics go, Rotella-T synthetic is used by a lot of cyclists. I read somewhere that Shell says that it meets all JASO specs except the ash content is a smidge too high. I don't think that is any concern though.
I think the foaming might be more of a concern with a high revving engine like on a Ninja 250, which can spin upwards of 10K just cruising on the highway. Even with mc specific oil, the engine must have a windage tray to prevent the oil from foaming.
I loved that old Rabbit Diesel, it got around 48 mpg whether it was on the highway or in town, pretty strange. I haven't seen a Rabbit pickup in years. They all rusted away up here a long time ago!
unit5alive
Member
I really like the Amsoil 10/40 motorcycle oil , its been great .
The lack of zinc is only a concern with older engines running flat tappet cams, a real pain for the vintage muscle car crowd, but not insoluble by any means. API specs have passed the point where they create confusion. Later no longer means better, it depends on the application.
As for "using-up/wearing out" oil, unless it's been heated beyond the limits (about 240-260F for conventional, 260-300F for synthetics), oil can last an incredibly long time. Some even clain that oil improves with mileage. That's not what causes problems. Thermal breakdown is easy enough to gauge; use a dipstick oil thermometer or at least smell the oil. Burnt oil is one of those ungodly odors that's impossible to mistake for anything else and the oil will look dark. By the time one of these little aircooled engines reaches 240F, it will exhibit signs of heat exhaustion such as poor shifting and preignition.
The biggest issue is contamination. Normal combustion byproducts add abrasive particulates and acidic compounds to the oil. And, with a wet clutch, friction material compounds the problem, especially since there's no real oil filter unless you add one. It doesn't matter how good the oil is once it's been transformed into fine lapping compound. That said, top-quality synthetics are better than mineral oil. I ran Mobil-1 in my late Astro van, 5W30 in the winter, 10W30 in summer and the motor was still in tiptop shape after 320,000 miles...no change in actual, measured, oil pressure and only 3psi difference in compression from highest-to-lowest cylinder. Oil change intervals were determined by when the oil started showing coloration. No mystery, just clean oil with high film strength.
The big issue, in terms of function, is using a wet clutch specific formulation. As long as the clutch doesn't slip it comes down to what you're willing to spend per quart. I'd run AMSoil, but $10/qt is triple what I pay for Honda GN4 and to my mind three oil changes will do more to extend engine life than one with higher film-strength oil.
As for "using-up/wearing out" oil, unless it's been heated beyond the limits (about 240-260F for conventional, 260-300F for synthetics), oil can last an incredibly long time. Some even clain that oil improves with mileage. That's not what causes problems. Thermal breakdown is easy enough to gauge; use a dipstick oil thermometer or at least smell the oil. Burnt oil is one of those ungodly odors that's impossible to mistake for anything else and the oil will look dark. By the time one of these little aircooled engines reaches 240F, it will exhibit signs of heat exhaustion such as poor shifting and preignition.
The biggest issue is contamination. Normal combustion byproducts add abrasive particulates and acidic compounds to the oil. And, with a wet clutch, friction material compounds the problem, especially since there's no real oil filter unless you add one. It doesn't matter how good the oil is once it's been transformed into fine lapping compound. That said, top-quality synthetics are better than mineral oil. I ran Mobil-1 in my late Astro van, 5W30 in the winter, 10W30 in summer and the motor was still in tiptop shape after 320,000 miles...no change in actual, measured, oil pressure and only 3psi difference in compression from highest-to-lowest cylinder. Oil change intervals were determined by when the oil started showing coloration. No mystery, just clean oil with high film strength.
The big issue, in terms of function, is using a wet clutch specific formulation. As long as the clutch doesn't slip it comes down to what you're willing to spend per quart. I'd run AMSoil, but $10/qt is triple what I pay for Honda GN4 and to my mind three oil changes will do more to extend engine life than one with higher film-strength oil.
I drove my last company car 90,000 miles, and the oil was changed 10 times at Jiffy Lube. It was a three year lease, and I drive a lot for work. The rocker and cam area were still clean, even with the extended oil change intervals. But remember, the oil was changed three times a year and had a lot of miles but it was never in the crankcase for more than 4-5 months. One of my other cars (that we purchased after the lease) has 170,000 miles on it and has had the same 10,000 mile interval on regular old dino juice. The car only consumes a quart or so in between changes at this point. I don't think it will have a problem hitting 200K and then some.
I will change the oil quite frequently on this motorcycle because it lacks a pleated paper oil filter and a sophisticated emission control system which helps keep the oil clean from combustion by-products. I'm guessing every 1000-1500 miles would be good? It's less than a quart, so a gallon jug is good for 5 changes. Why skimp?
Miniac
Member
My only point was that the higher zinc content in the diesel oils could be considered to be a benefit. You've torn down engines where metal to metal contact has occurred. Additional zinc would have delayed the damage. (if only slightly delayed
) Of course, if your experiences have been anything like mine, . . . if the sad owner had been more diligent about checking and changing his oil the benefit would far outweigh any benefit of additional zinc content. Amen to that. It's interesting to note that many commercial diesels which run rather long intervals between changes are running huge bypass filters. My baby brother drives a semi for a living, and the bypass filter on his rig is, like, 10" in diameter and 30" long, and that's in addition to the rather massive full flow filter. The creepy thing is that his company has some satellite monitoring thing on his truck that tells them all the engine vitals, like RPMs, temp, pressure, etc. (Ok that part is kind of cool) but it also reports his speed and location and tracks his hours behind the wheel. If my wife ever figures out how to attach one of those to me I'm gonna have some explaining to do!
-kevin
Tell me about it!
I've read that some rental car companies have logging devices in their vehicles to make sure you don't drive them like ......ummmm rental cars (hehehe) and to ensure you don't exceed mileage/area restrictions.
You can buy one for home use to keep track of your kids. It plugs into the OBDII connector and keeps track of speed and location with a GPS. You dump the data on to your PC and see where your car has been, and how its been driven!
The thought had occured to me. For a CT70 motor it's more like a benefit that's so slight for the application it hardly warrants mentioning. For a pre-roller-lifter era automotive engine, it would mean a lot - particularly if the foaming issue could be addressed.
I've read studies done by Ford, Mercedes-Benz & others that claim current motor oils can last 18,000 miles & beyond. What I never see mentioned are the test conditions. GM tests new engine designs by running examples at WOT for the supposed equivalent of 300,000 miles. Outside of controlled laboratory conditions, things are very different. For that matter, those of use living outside of Texas operate our cars in three additional seasons. Winter is the toughest on engines and oil.
Experienced commercial truckers are no fools, they know what works and where the greatest paybacks are to be realized. Heavy diesel engines that run 1500rpm and are seldom allowed to cool off completely are also a world apart. For a car, I reckon that an extra C-note a year is cheaper overkill than $20K every 3-5 years for new cars. As for debating an extra $20 bill annually for the CT70, wake me when it's over... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Honda specs call for the first oil change at 300 miles, in addition to cleaning the oil spinner - then at 1000 mile intervals. I wouldn't even attempt 1000 miles on an oil change without adding a cartridge-type (real) oil filter first.
I did mine at 50, and then 300, and again at 500. I'll probably go with every 500-750 now. My manual states every 2000km (1200 miles) or every year. I thought that 1000-1500 was generous, but apparently it isn't for a little motorcycle!
Fyrman
Member
Wow, what a great thread... thanx guys.
I belong to a diesel car club so hearing that you recommend a high end diesel oil for our air cooled engines was music to my ears. We ALWAYS have a litre or two of Total,(previously know as ELF) Quartz INEO MC3, 5W-30, Synthetic Oil kicking around the garage. It's all I run in my MKIV VW Jetta so frequent changes in the bikes are a no-brainer.
Oh, and here's a few pics for you arceeguy, it's one of the members of our club.
Thanx again for the wealt of info here, you guys rock!!
I belong to a diesel car club so hearing that you recommend a high end diesel oil for our air cooled engines was music to my ears. We ALWAYS have a litre or two of Total,(previously know as ELF) Quartz INEO MC3, 5W-30, Synthetic Oil kicking around the garage. It's all I run in my MKIV VW Jetta so frequent changes in the bikes are a no-brainer.
Oh, and here's a few pics for you arceeguy, it's one of the members of our club.
Thanx again for the wealt of info here, you guys rock!!
Attachments
That's one clean caddy!
I am waiting for the new CR TDI's to be sold here in the US again. A new TDI Jetta is going to be my wife's next car. Even with diesel costing more than gasoline, the better mileage will still keep us ahead of the game and diesel prices will probably fall relative to gasoline depending on market conditions. As far as oil goes for VW diesels, I'm hearing that oil that meets VW 505.1 specs is very difficult to get here in the US. (more or less a VW dealer item)
As far as the mini goes, I'm thinking of installing an hour meter and going with a 25 hour (or 6 months, whichever occurs first) interval. Industrial equipment, airplanes and boats get their service intervals at specified time intervals - funny how cars and motorcycles go by mileage.
I am waiting for the new CR TDI's to be sold here in the US again. A new TDI Jetta is going to be my wife's next car. Even with diesel costing more than gasoline, the better mileage will still keep us ahead of the game and diesel prices will probably fall relative to gasoline depending on market conditions. As far as oil goes for VW diesels, I'm hearing that oil that meets VW 505.1 specs is very difficult to get here in the US. (more or less a VW dealer item)
As far as the mini goes, I'm thinking of installing an hour meter and going with a 25 hour (or 6 months, whichever occurs first) interval. Industrial equipment, airplanes and boats get their service intervals at specified time intervals - funny how cars and motorcycles go by mileage.
Fyrman
Member
arceeguy said:
I have a local dealer here that brings in the Total for me but I know a lot of the guys from the States use :
www.TDIparts.com
World Impex, Inc.
VW TDI timing belts, aluminum VW skid plates, VW short shift kits, VW G60 clutch, and Race Pipes by www.dieselgeek.com
Parts for all water cooled VW cars specializing in TDI models
Many of them are running 507 now too although there's no real proof that it's any better for pre CR models.
Sorry for the thread hijack... back to the bikes now!