Sore kicker foot
- Thread starter cyberrust
- Start date
Hi Old Ct,Yes I did measure nub and it is 7mm and tranny bearing is tight.But upon noticing the low gear once again and looking at parts manual I found that inside of the gear has a collar while the other side is flat.If you look assy in parts the manual it shows flat side up and collar down as shown in pic.I think the manual is incorrect and this gear should be reversed to collar up.The reason being is the collar is 2mm below the surface of the gear therefore lowering the low gear when installed in case.It would however explain the half chipped teeth and not be noticeable in a stock motor with less compression.Also I beleive installing the low gear flat side down would raise it 2mm for 100 % mesh with pinion gear. Please check it out and let me know as this is the only reasonable answer that I have found in 3 days.Thank You for interest.
Happy Fathers Day,Brian
Happy Fathers Day,Brian
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The gears can only be installed in their correct orientations. Try them any other way and you'll instantly see why. Even with the kickstart shaft asm., the pinion gear cannot be reversed - the friction spring won't fit.
The possibilities are: the kickstart pinion gear is improperly located, toward the RH side; or, the countershaft asm. is offset by 2mm toward the LH (flywheel) side...along with the mainshaft asm, if the tranny gears align properly across both shaft assemblies. The latter strikes me as highly improbable, even more so than the former. Sounds like there's about 1mm to be gained by using a thinner thrust washer behind the pinion gear, which leaves another 1mm to be gained.
Wild-assed thought for today - is there a thrust washer between the end of the kickstart shaft & LH case? It'd be an easy mistake to make and a flat washer could easily be held in place with just a minimal amount of oil present.
The possibilities are: the kickstart pinion gear is improperly located, toward the RH side; or, the countershaft asm. is offset by 2mm toward the LH (flywheel) side...along with the mainshaft asm, if the tranny gears align properly across both shaft assemblies. The latter strikes me as highly improbable, even more so than the former. Sounds like there's about 1mm to be gained by using a thinner thrust washer behind the pinion gear, which leaves another 1mm to be gained.
Wild-assed thought for today - is there a thrust washer between the end of the kickstart shaft & LH case? It'd be an easy mistake to make and a flat washer could easily be held in place with just a minimal amount of oil present.
OLD CT
Well-Known Member
Here's another thought,was the thick curved thrust washer installed on top of the last snap ring groove of the shaft before you originally buttoned the case up?Whew,long sentence.
That keeps the kickshaft from walking out of the case.Just wondering if that was left out and it walked when you were kicking the damage may have happened then?
Thought's on this Racerx?
That keeps the kickshaft from walking out of the case.Just wondering if that was left out and it walked when you were kicking the damage may have happened then?
Thought's on this Racerx?
theraymondguy
Well-Known Member
I had lots of help / parts volunteered on my build (Firepower354, Dirtbikr188, Fatcaaat). Only right to share it around. The gear on the kicker looks to sit ~3/8" off of the case. The white grease is foodgrade (I have a very curious 5 year old), there is some play between the gear and the shaft, but it looks usable. The assembly is yours cyberrust for the cost of postage: PM and let me know
Thanks Raymondguy,I just measured and mine sits the same about 3/8" off the case.I do not think this is the problem but if I,am wrong I will gladly accept your offer.Thank You
Does any one out there have a kicker set up and 4speed trans for a HKO in place with open cases and no parts missing to actually see if pinion and low gear 100% mesh upon kick?And oh yeah my bearing is set just like your pic.I even tried flipping that to see if I could pick up 2mm to no avail.
Thanks, Brian
Does any one out there have a kicker set up and 4speed trans for a HKO in place with open cases and no parts missing to actually see if pinion and low gear 100% mesh upon kick?And oh yeah my bearing is set just like your pic.I even tried flipping that to see if I could pick up 2mm to no avail.
Thanks, Brian
Honestly, this is further eroding what's left of my sanity :43: But, I'm just plain, old-school, too damn stubborn to give up. I've no doubt that a solution will be found, it's just isolating a cause that seems impossible, for the moment. "The impossible just takes a little longer"...
If the internal snapring (clutch side) is omitted, the kickstart shaft will walk part way out of the RH case. However, that's on the upswing. Inserted back into place, it'll work...for one kick...if everything else is otherwise in place and aligning properly.
I just did a little test.With tranny cluster in place and kicker installed just as seen in pic.and crank out of cases.Kick shaft turned as far left as possible so pinion is not engaged,after I put RH case on. Then spring and splined retainer then last snap ring.I was then able to peer thru cylinder hole and see tranny and kicker pinion which was up and disengaged from low gear just like it should be.I then put Kicker arm on shaft and rotated spring wound kick shaft.I could see pinion thru cylinder hole engage low gear but still not fully meshed?
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OLD CT
Well-Known Member
O.K,I take it back after a real world close up inspection today.Not 100%.Maybe 1mm off.Checked this out at lunch time today.So now i measured the snap ring that goes on before the kicker gear and it measures .91mm.If you want it let me know and you can match it up to yours.If it's better use it if it's the same as yours send her back to me.Sorry for the 100% mis info.That was my bad.I also took a pic of a three speed kicker gear i had laying around to see the mesh pattern.Some pics for your enjoyment!
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theraymondguy
Well-Known Member
From the 'bottom' of the kickshaft to the top
Snap ring
Thrust washer
24 Tooth gear
Thrust washer
Snap ring
Thanks Old ct and Raymond,
From your pic OldCT I can see that pinion ans low gear is not 100% mesh.The snap ring is not a issue on both sides of pinion as they are identical #15 as per parts manual 20mm.I did however order # 13 thrust washer to see if there is a thickness change. The thickness measurements I have taken were not down to the 1/100 of a mm. but the snap rings and thrust washer I'am sure are original as are all the other parts.Again the tranny assy.and the kicker assy.were never apart until now.Today I received brand new pinion 24t and brand new 35t low gear which look identical to what I have.Not aftermarket ,part #'s are correct.So this being the case I can only assume that Honda never intended the pinion and low gear to completely mesh.This is completely impossible given the nub at 7mm and unused spline section about 5mm snap ring and thrust washer.No matter what you do this combination will never completely 100% mesh with low gear.Please prove me wrong.
Brian
From your pic OldCT I can see that pinion ans low gear is not 100% mesh.The snap ring is not a issue on both sides of pinion as they are identical #15 as per parts manual 20mm.I did however order # 13 thrust washer to see if there is a thickness change. The thickness measurements I have taken were not down to the 1/100 of a mm. but the snap rings and thrust washer I'am sure are original as are all the other parts.Again the tranny assy.and the kicker assy.were never apart until now.Today I received brand new pinion 24t and brand new 35t low gear which look identical to what I have.Not aftermarket ,part #'s are correct.So this being the case I can only assume that Honda never intended the pinion and low gear to completely mesh.This is completely impossible given the nub at 7mm and unused spline section about 5mm snap ring and thrust washer.No matter what you do this combination will never completely 100% mesh with low gear.Please prove me wrong.
Brian
I want to thank you guys for the time that you spent helping me.If you were in my neighborhood I would gladly buy you a drink as I have had many trying to figure why Honda did not 100% mesh the starter pinion.Now I know why there are so many broken gears and I guess by looking at the other broken set that I have and is still full of dried black sludge you can visibily see that the face on pinion teeth is about 3/4 shiny and 1/4 sludged. Providing proof that they did not fully mesh either.I will let you know how I make out when I get this back together.The one thing I,am going to do though is take a few extra kicks with plug out to maybe loosen up the motor a little bit before starting.
Thank You,Brian
Thank You,Brian
You've now verified that everything is correct. I don't believe that there's even a possibility of getting the wrong kickstart shaft; and, the odds that the thrust face was incorrectly machined are lower than picking the winning lottery number.
We've all been going on the incorrect assumption (and getting by just fine) that the pinion gear teeth makes 100% contact, same as the C/S & mainshaft gears do. Yes, assumption is the mother of all
ups. That said, even in this ultra-harsh light, there's a very logical reason why I'd not criticize anyone over this issue, namely..."if it ain't broke...". Realistically speaking, this breakage is uncommon, if not rare; there are only two major parts involved (3 if you include the C/S gear) and they're completely taken for granted, except at rebuild time. So, anyone going through an engine where the shaft & gears are still in tip-top shape would naturally assume that nothing would be affected by simple R&R...because of a highly successful track record.
Just an FYI, the only setup known for kickstart gear-related breakage is the older Takegawa 5-speed, when used with their old 124 superhead tune. Stuffing more gear pairs inside those case requires thinner gears. The OEM Honda 4-speed gears are significantly wider and stronger...which is why I sometimes refer to the 3-speed as the small Honda equivalent of the Powerglide.
Okay, back on topic...
There's still the money question to be answered..."what caused the failure in the first place?". Apparently, it wasn't a part(s) or assembly issue. It strikes me that you're now back to square one, but with new parts. If everything is the same as it was, what's to prevent a repeat performance? I'm not playing devil's advocate here. Hardened gears don't crack, they chip & break; they're brittle. It's possible that one tooth was partially broken & you missed it; no way to ever know if that's what happened at this stage. The short story, in an already long post, is that starting technique is virtually the only place left to look.
We've all been going on the incorrect assumption (and getting by just fine) that the pinion gear teeth makes 100% contact, same as the C/S & mainshaft gears do. Yes, assumption is the mother of all
ups. That said, even in this ultra-harsh light, there's a very logical reason why I'd not criticize anyone over this issue, namely..."if it ain't broke...". Realistically speaking, this breakage is uncommon, if not rare; there are only two major parts involved (3 if you include the C/S gear) and they're completely taken for granted, except at rebuild time. So, anyone going through an engine where the shaft & gears are still in tip-top shape would naturally assume that nothing would be affected by simple R&R...because of a highly successful track record.Just an FYI, the only setup known for kickstart gear-related breakage is the older Takegawa 5-speed, when used with their old 124 superhead tune. Stuffing more gear pairs inside those case requires thinner gears. The OEM Honda 4-speed gears are significantly wider and stronger...which is why I sometimes refer to the 3-speed as the small Honda equivalent of the Powerglide.
Okay, back on topic...
There's still the money question to be answered..."what caused the failure in the first place?". Apparently, it wasn't a part(s) or assembly issue. It strikes me that you're now back to square one, but with new parts. If everything is the same as it was, what's to prevent a repeat performance? I'm not playing devil's advocate here. Hardened gears don't crack, they chip & break; they're brittle. It's possible that one tooth was partially broken & you missed it; no way to ever know if that's what happened at this stage. The short story, in an already long post, is that starting technique is virtually the only place left to look.
theraymondguy
Well-Known Member
The OP did mention that the engine seemed to have very high compression - I wonder if there's a mechanical error that is yet to be resolved?
Incorrect ring gap?
Bore issue?
Incorrect ring gap?
Bore issue?
I know that this tranny and kicker parts were never taken apart .My only conclusion is that the old gears were worn when compared to new gears.Cobine this with the added stress of high dome piston and larger bore along with heavy duty valve springs and bingo.Broken gears.I have owned this bike for about 4 years and never had this problem before I went to performance parts.
bc17a
Well-Known Member
An upgrade to a CRF70 kick starter is a must with your 110cc. The CRF gear stays meshed with the trans and has a much wider/stronger tooth. They can be had for about 25 bucks complete from fee-bay.
Only issue would be having to change your "H" gear set with a set that has the correct 1st gear tooth count to match the pinion gear. I prefer to use a 4 speed trans from an ATC70. They were used from about 1980 to 85, are abundant and not too expensive. This trans also has a taller (1.04) 4th gear ratio which would take advantage of your added power.
Only issue would be having to change your "H" gear set with a set that has the correct 1st gear tooth count to match the pinion gear. I prefer to use a 4 speed trans from an ATC70. They were used from about 1980 to 85, are abundant and not too expensive. This trans also has a taller (1.04) 4th gear ratio which would take advantage of your added power.
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