C70 electric starter issue (1980)

jdeere_man

New Member
I just bought a 1980 C70 Passport. It starts just fine with the kickstart. The electric though does nothing; when you push the button nothing happpens, no attempt to start.

If I put a booster (6 volt) on it it fires right off with the first push of the button. I thought the battery was the issue so I got a different battery. Same problem.

An idea what might cause this? I am new to these. The previous owner says he changed the starter relay?
 

JPardue

Active Member
The C70 Cub (Passport in the USA) uses the neutral switch circuit as a safety for the starter.
The idea was good but the implementation was weak.

What happens:
Switched, fused battery power flows to the starter relay and the neutral lamp whenever the ignition switch is on.
The neutral switch has a small brass contact that grounds the neutral lamp when the transmission is in neutral, completing the circuit and illuminating the lamp.

When you press the starter button, the starter relay and the neutral lamp share the ground through the tiny brass contact.
The neutral lamp draws milliAmps of power.
The starter relay coil needs an Amp or more to pull in.
Unfortunately the brass contact is only good for some milliAmps, so the starter relay rather famously does not do anything.
The starter relay is actually trying to pull in, but there is not quite enough power to get it done, not reliably.
Evidence the starter relay is trying: the neutral lamp dims or goes out when you press the starter button.

When you boost the system externally, the addition of some extra Amps and maybe a Volt or two pushes the starter relay into action.

The cure is to add a booster relay requiring less pull-in Amps than the starter relay circuit.
The relay is able to operate from the milliAmps available from the neutral lamp circuit, then its heavy internal contacts easily power the starter relay.
A product called Starterino with LED indicators plugs in and solves the problem on the 6 Volt C70.

My 1981 6 Volt C70 Passport had the same problem
 

Adam-NLV

Well-Known Member
I just bought a 1980 C70 Passport. It starts just fine with the kickstart. The electric though does nothing; when you push the button nothing happpens, no attempt to start.

If I put a booster (6 volt) on it it fires right off with the first push of the button. I thought the battery was the issue so I got a different battery. Same problem.

An idea what might cause this? I am new to these. The previous owner says he changed the starter relay?
Your hunch was right, it is a lack of power. In 1980, the batteries left much to be desired especially when using a electric start with only a six volt battery.:45:

As you found out a booster battery fires her right up so the relay is fine. The answer is to get a Better battery. Take back the one you purchased and install this lithium one, a little more money but its lighter & will last 5 X Longer.

It's a upgrade battery that's made for the Honda C70 with the power needed for E-start.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shorai-LFX-...ash=item2c8c017241:g:t~4AAOSwT4lWT6uv&vxp=mtr
 
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JPardue

Active Member
The Shorai factory website shows the charging Voltage for that battery requiring a minimum of 13.1 Volts at idle, and a not-to-exceed without damage Voltage of 15.2

http://shoraipower.com/products?action=vehicle&type=175&make=317097&model=317105&year=317104

No doubt those numbers are typos for a 6 Volt battery, but those numbers are long-standing.
The factory site lists it as fitting the C70, however there are no correct 6 Volt specifications listed.

Suppose those Voltages are cut in half for a 6 Volt battery.
It needs 6.55 Volts at idle and has a never-exceed Voltage of 7.6
Honda does not list a minimum Voltage, just that minimum charging begins at 1,550 RPM - well above idle.
At idle a Passport is not charging... its discharging and Voltage will never be more than 6.3 with a lead acid battery.
The factory C70 manual in section 14 states the maximum charge Voltage at 8,000 RPM is 8.5 Volts.
Any thoughts on the battery specs?
Honda states the maximum charge Amps is 2.3 at 8,000 RPM.

Have you tried one in your Passport?
Not trying to be picky, but certainly prefer your experience and good judgement over specs (or the lack of).
I like the other specs, but parts of the warranty on the factory site are a concern:
Conditions which may void warranty:
Over-voltage charging, or other error by charger or user setting of charger.
Over-discharge (i.e. resting voltage allowed to fall below 12.8V/6.4V for Lfx 12V/6V types)

Jon
 

jdeere_man

New Member
The C70 Cub (Passport in the USA) uses the neutral switch circuit as a safety for the starter.
The idea was good but the implementation was weak.

What happens:
Switched, fused battery power flows to the starter relay and the neutral lamp whenever the ignition switch is on.
The neutral switch has a small brass contact that grounds the neutral lamp when the transmission is in neutral, completing the circuit and illuminating the lamp.

When you press the starter button, the starter relay and the neutral lamp share the ground through the tiny brass contact.
The neutral lamp draws milliAmps of power.
The starter relay coil needs an Amp or more to pull in.
Unfortunately the brass contact is only good for some milliAmps, so the starter relay rather famously does not do anything.
The starter relay is actually trying to pull in, but there is not quite enough power to get it done, not reliably.
Evidence the starter relay is trying: the neutral lamp dims or goes out when you press the starter button.

When you boost the system externally, the addition of some extra Amps and maybe a Volt or two pushes the starter relay into action.

The cure is to add a booster relay requiring less pull-in Amps than the starter relay circuit.
The relay is able to operate from the milliAmps available from the neutral lamp circuit, then its heavy internal contacts easily power the starter relay.
A product called Starterino with LED indicators plugs in and solves the problem on the 6 Volt C70.

My 1981 6 Volt C70 Passport had the same problem
Ah thank you for the detailed information. That sounds exactly like what my problem is. The neutral light does Dim when I hit the start button. And my booster actually applies like 8 volts so it's getting enough to make the contact go.

Also fwiw I did order a Shorai 6 volt lithium before posting this initially and it did not resolve the problem. It behaves exactly the same with that battery.
 
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jdeere_man

New Member
I have one to try. At $100 I am hoping it lasts and doesn't burst into flames.

After learning how the charging system works on these 6 volt C70 I was a bit hesitant to try the litium battery because I was afraid I was going to be exposed to some pretty wild voltages. I understand the battery basically acts as a voltage regulator to which probably can't be good on it.

I guess I will find out.
 
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jdeere_man

New Member
Fwiw I would not recommend the Shorai Lithium Iron battery.

When I got it I checked the voltage, ok. Hooked it up temporarily to see if she would start, no dice. Disconnected it then because it would not go in without changing the wiring a little. Today I went to install, rearranged battery cables, put in. Dead as hell. Took out, tested voltage, next to nothing, like wayyy dead. Put a little charge on it, it swelled up. Absolute junk. Don't waste your money. I didn't even run it in the bike.

I ordered lfx18l2-bs06
 
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JPardue

Active Member
If a new battery does not solve your starter problem, and it certainly did not solve mine, I can offer to let you try a Starterino booster relay designed for the C70.

Shoot me a message if you want to go that route. Won't cost you anything to try one. Plugs in with no modifications to the wiring or the bike.

Jon
 

jdeere_man

New Member
Interesting enough if I pull my tailight bulb my old lead acid battery starts it.

The bulb is pulling just enough to to keep the starter relay from closing.

I will try a new lead acid battery.

It would be nice if the tail light didn't come one until started like the headlight.

*edit. Hit or miss. Sometime with no bulb it starts and sometimes it doesn't. But clearly I can see the issue here is definitely the lack if power to close the starter relay
 
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kirrbby

Well-Known Member
You should definitely take Jon's advice. He speaks from experience, and more experience. Or you could continue to wing it.
 

red69

Well-Known Member
Fwiw I would not recommend the Shorai Lithium Iron battery.

When I got it I checked the voltage, ok. Hooked it up temporarily to see if she would start, no dice. Disconnected it then because it would not go in without changing the wiring a little. Today I went to install, rearranged battery cables, put in. Dead as hell. Took out, tested voltage, next to nothing, like wayyy dead. Put a little charge on it, it swelled up. Absolute junk. Don't waste your money. I didn't even run it in the bike.

I ordered lfx18l2

What did you use to charge the battery? You must have a dedicated charger to charge Lithium chemistries. You can actually have a wicked fire if they are not charged properly. I would get that thing outside in a hurry. Lithium batteries have been known to burn down homes and they actually brought down a large UPS freighter.
 

JPardue

Active Member
You should definitely take Jon's advice. He speaks from experience, and more experience. Or you could continue to wing it.

I get things wrong at times, like recently did not realize the CT70 is fitted with Energy Transfer ignition. Posted some absolutely wrong information about how the ignition works, then got schooled on it. Edited my posts to delete the incorrect information, hoping I didn't make too big a mess. Doh!

By fitting a booster relay the C70 starter does work well with a plain old lead acid battery, even when its a little low on charge. Years of my own R&D & testing support this fact.

Had a Lithium battery in the shop, not installed in anything, sitting on a glass table connected to its factory dedicated charger and connectors. Within ten minutes of beginning a charge cycle it started boiling out intense smoke. Did not explode, but it did catch on fire. It was not a Shorai. Held a big breath and tossed it outdoors for a smoky finale. Not saying Lithium batteries are bad... but the one I had was a problem. It freaked me out. Due to lacking a Voltage regulator, I will not put one in a little Honda.

Realizing other people have different experiences, frankly I was hoping to hear good results. Lasting longer, having more power and lighter weight are desirable qualities.
 

jdeere_man

New Member
Fwiw I would not recommend the Shorai Lithium Iron battery.

When I got it I checked the voltage, ok. Hooked it up temporarily to see if she would start, no dice. Disconnected it then because it would not go in without changing the wiring a little. Today I went to install, rearranged battery cables, put in. Dead as hell. Took out, tested voltage, next to nothing, like wayyy dead. Put a little charge on it, it swelled up. Absolute junk. Don't waste your money. I didn't even run it in the bike.

I ordered lfx18l2

What did you use to charge the battery? You must have a dedicated charger to charge Lithium chemistries. You can actually have a wicked fire if they are not charged properly. I would get that thing outside in a hurry. Lithium batteries have been known to burn down homes and they actually brought down a large UPS freighter.
I used a regular battery charger. It in fact says you can use a regular charger as long as it does not use a desulfate cycle/mode. I would say that is probably poor advice on the manufacturers part.

My other thought is if it's so sensitive to charging and voltages it's probably a poor fit for a scooter anyway because the charging provided by the scooters engine is pretty poorly regulated.
 
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69ST

Well-Known Member
The charging/lighting setups of these vintage machines are crude and kinda half-assed, at best. When everything is new and within spec, it worked...well enough...sorta. The head lighting was never good, battery life was often short due to overcharging, and it didn't take much to cause an instant, cascading, failure. One broken filament, or an unexpectedly cooked battery, and the rest of the bulbs would burn. Turn signals are (in)famous for :censored:up if any value in the system changes. The problem, IMO, is the "voltage regulation"...it's about as refined as surgery was, circa 1850. It was "alright" for lead-acid batteries, as long as you don't mind frequent replacements. The failures weren't dramatic.

Lithium-ion batteries are a whole other world. The vastly increased charge density that we want comes at a price...basic physics. Pack enough electrical, chemical, or electrochemical energy into a small space and you have a potentially incendiary situation, should that energy be suddenly, uncontrollably, released. And commercially-available Li-ion batteries, when they short-out, are prone toward cascading failures...that can melt metal. With state-of-the-art charge regulation, i.e. floating charge rate, it works pretty well...mostly. CT70-era charging circuitry with a Li-ion battery is, imho, tantamount to performing brain surgery with a ripsaw. :butcher: If one were to upgrade the charging circuitry of a vintage system, they'd have a fighting chance...maybe.

There is one basic issue that won't go away. These little bikes are a hostile environment for something as sensitive as a 2017 lithium-ion battery...wide temperature swings and vibration[SUP]3[/SUP] Battery technology is rapidly maturing. Doubtless, we will see Li-ion batteries that are virtually failsafe...in 5 to 10 years. I expect the marketing curve to resemble what we've seen, thus far, with LED technology. And that has reached the steep section of the development curve. They've gone from mediocre and hideously expensive to very good and, while still not cheap, at least reasonable value for the money.

I'm with JP & jdm...too much of a gamble, at this time. For the same money, you can buy 4, or 5, SLA batteries and toss `em like Dixie cups, if need be. Now, in the interest of providing full disclosure, my approach is decidedly conservative, i.e. stick with what works and wait for some real world field service history to become part of the landscape, especially when there are known problems. The arse that doesn't get barbecued might be your own...
 

Adam-NLV

Well-Known Member
I'm with JP & jdm...too much of a gamble, at this time. For the same money, you can buy 4, or 5, SLA batteries and toss `em like Dixie cups, if need be. Now, in the interest of providing full disclosure, my approach is decidedly conservative, i.e. stick with what works and wait for some real world field service history to become part of the landscape, especially when there are known problems. The arse that doesn't get barbecued might be your own...


Agreed, nobody needs an exploding lithium ion battery between your legs!

Somebody better notify all the Motorcycle manufactures of the Dangers of the Japanese Shori Lithium Batteries.

Pretty sure; Harley Davidson, Yamaha, and Honda Cub 50 owners should all take heed to this scientific lilH study…. & esp if John P. agrees.:21::24::firefire:
 
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69ST

Well-Known Member
Agreed, nobody needs an exploding lithium ion battery between your legs!

Somebody better notify all the Motorcycle manufactures of the Dangers of the Japanese Shori Lithium Batteries.

Pretty sure; Harley Davidson, Yamaha, and Honda Cub 50 owners should all take heed to this scientific lilH study…. & esp if John P. agrees.:21::24::firefire:

:39:Hmmm I never knew that HD, et al, used the same, high-tech, voltage regulator as 49cc-based Hondas that were engineered half a century ago.
 

Adam-NLV

Well-Known Member
You'd be surprised to know...

I lost my battery charger to my Canon camera, so I figured I'd build a quick little charger circuit for it. It was an emergency and I just needed a quick charge! I was worried about charging this Li ion battery and didn't need an explosion, much to my surprise I found a voltage regulator built in to this Li ion battery!

A mini circuit built in he battery casing so happily i didn't have to worry about it blowing up. Now that's quality engineering.

The conclusion, is this: A correctly engineered circuit won't explode, like in an Apple i phone, But taking short cuts and not fully understanding the science of elect/engineering.... like Samsung did.... is very hazardous and can be deadly. I suspect it's like that in a lot of fields of industry.


I would think that the Shori battery company would not sell an unsafe product that would make em liable for a big settlement.
 

Adam-NLV

Well-Known Member
:39:Hmmm I never knew that HD, et al, used the same, high-tech, voltage regulator as 49cc-based Hondas that were engineered half a century ago.

Fits all Harley-Davidson Kickstart/ 6 Volt models in addition to the following listed models


Fits the following Honda models:
C70 Passport 1980-1981 (Yuasa cross reference #6N11-2D)


Fits the following Triumph models:
Tiger 1995-2001, 2003-2010 (Yuasa cross reference #6N11A-1B)


Fits the following Yamaha models:
YSR50 1987-1992 (Yuasa cross reference #6N4-2A-5)
 
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