New to the CT 70 scene but very interested in learning what I can about the "Candy" paints and have seen some discussion on it. I just had my KO media blasted in prep for paint and want to do the original "Candy Ruby Red" but still exploring the options. Has anyone tried powder coating - what were the results, would you recommend it, and if good... what color, manufacturer is a good match for the Ruby Red. Has anyone had success with a rattle can approach and if so, what color, manufacturer? Are the kits the best way to go? My paint shop tells me that the Candy colors are very hard to match on a custom mix and they aren't sure if the base coat is a silver or a gold - anyone know for sure? Appreciate any advice from those of you that have been there and done that - Thanks! JJ
CT 70 "Candy Ruby Red" paint project
- Thread starter CT70JJ
- Start date
If your goal is a DIY project, using rattlecans, then Colorite.com is a source for an acceptable color match. They can supply you with the base silver, candy midcoat and clear top coat. The finished result depends largely on prep work; get that right and you're off to a good start. Rattlecan formulations are safer, being non-isocyanate based. You trade durability. Catalyzed urethane is very durable material. This assumes that you have at least some experience shooting paint. Candy colors are fiendishly tricky to apply for the inexperienced.
Some will disagree with me on this, but while PC is cheap & durable, it's not a great choice for a CT70 frameset. Body repair options are extremely limited, you cannot PC the headlight bucket, the surface will have more orange peel than paint, and it's a one-shot deal on a sheetmetal frame; what you see is what you'll live with. It'll also hurt resale value, significantly.
Some will disagree with me on this, but while PC is cheap & durable, it's not a great choice for a CT70 frameset. Body repair options are extremely limited, you cannot PC the headlight bucket, the surface will have more orange peel than paint, and it's a one-shot deal on a sheetmetal frame; what you see is what you'll live with. It'll also hurt resale value, significantly.
Thank you so much for the advice! You have answered a lot of questions. Powder coat seems to be highly tauted for it's durability and I was considering doing just the base in PC and then painting the color and clear coats but based on your advice, that's probably not a good idea as I want to keep it as original as possible and retain value.
For rim halves, a seat pan, or even a footrest assembly, it might be a good choice. The finish doesn't have to be wonderful on these items, black is black, cloud silver isn't the toughest match know to mankind, and the durability would be a plus. PC may be the only other material that will keep the bead seats from rusting, besides POR-15. On the other hand, rims & footrest pieces are small and don't take a whole lot of blast cabinet time, making them inexpensive, DIY, projects. I've seen some custom applications, like a rusty OEM tail light bracket, or fenders, done in "PC chrome"; looked more like soft-polished aluminum, very nice in its own right...if that's what you want. It's cheaper than chrome and, clearly, NOT chrome.
PC primer might be OK, however, you'd probably be best off to sand it, then apply the primer made by the manufacturer of whatever paint system you're using. Otherwise, paint adhesion will likely best less than optimal. Thus it becomes an extra step and an even thicker overall finish. At that point, I question whether it's worth it. Where you could get into trouble is if the PC ever needed to be removed, the processes are very harsh for sheetmetal. As counter-intuitive as it might seem, the fact that paint can be removed with relative ease is actually desirable with many parts, including body sheetmetal.
PC primer might be OK, however, you'd probably be best off to sand it, then apply the primer made by the manufacturer of whatever paint system you're using. Otherwise, paint adhesion will likely best less than optimal. Thus it becomes an extra step and an even thicker overall finish. At that point, I question whether it's worth it. Where you could get into trouble is if the PC ever needed to be removed, the processes are very harsh for sheetmetal. As counter-intuitive as it might seem, the fact that paint can be removed with relative ease is actually desirable with many parts, including body sheetmetal.
mips
Member
I have a bike that was powdercoated in ruby red that is pretty darn close. It is only 1/5 of the way built though ... so no finished photos yet.
Maybe i'll change my mind, but I think I am a powdercoat convert. I have about $150 into blasting and two stage coating the frame, the wheels, swingarm, forks ,and shock covers .... material included.
Spending $500 to get it painted gets you sunk real deep real quick. I've heard others talk about spending up to $800. I trust racerx's experience when he says you will take a hit when you sell it ... but what I wonder is will a painted bike in exactly the same condition cover that cost differential. If we are talking about $800 to get it painted, you would need to make $650 more on a painted bike JUST to break even.
The headlight bucket is a bit of a pain to match, but mine looks good enough right now that I'm satisified with the results.
Maybe i'll change my mind, but I think I am a powdercoat convert. I have about $150 into blasting and two stage coating the frame, the wheels, swingarm, forks ,and shock covers .... material included.
Spending $500 to get it painted gets you sunk real deep real quick. I've heard others talk about spending up to $800. I trust racerx's experience when he says you will take a hit when you sell it ... but what I wonder is will a painted bike in exactly the same condition cover that cost differential. If we are talking about $800 to get it painted, you would need to make $650 more on a painted bike JUST to break even.
The headlight bucket is a bit of a pain to match, but mine looks good enough right now that I'm satisified with the results.
IMO, have to primarily consider the frameset and the market realities of your, specific, bike. The wheels aren't likely to matter much and I doubt that anyone would really give a damn about the footrest asm...as long as they were done well. On the other hand, a knowledgeable buyer who's serious enough to look for a top-flight example a is going to be turned-off by a pc finish. The two finishes have very different properties...and with them, tradeoffs. The explanation is lengthy. For now, suffice it to say that costs for the two systems vary and that, based on a range of known prices for both processes, the gap can range from less than $250 to as much as $650. For a $1200 rider project a $450 (mathematical average) window is too big, though you'll still take a hit at resale time. At the upper end of the scale, the reduction is going to be a multiple of those initial cost savings. Over time, the gap is likely to grow even larger as the bikes become older, rarer, and more collectible...same as with any other special-interest machinery. The high-end market is finicky and demanding.
Ayers Garage
120cc
Bob, when are you gonna let it go with your hatred of powdercoat ?
This is not an orange peel finish like you always talk about.
It's also an exact match of OEM headlight buckets as pictures on this board have proven.
And, it's not permanent. If you need to remove it, ten minutes in the stripper vat and it's gone. After that, a thorough wash job, oven cycle to dry, blast again and it's ready for another powder job or whatever.
I'm one of the more expensive powder coaters in the country and my work is still significantly cheaper than paint.
I have been in email communications with Ben about sponsoring this forum but your powder bashing is the reason I haven't gotten out the checkbook. Why would I pay money to support this place when you, a super moderator, just bash what you don't understand ?
This is not an orange peel finish like you always talk about.
It's also an exact match of OEM headlight buckets as pictures on this board have proven.
And, it's not permanent. If you need to remove it, ten minutes in the stripper vat and it's gone. After that, a thorough wash job, oven cycle to dry, blast again and it's ready for another powder job or whatever.
I'm one of the more expensive powder coaters in the country and my work is still significantly cheaper than paint.
I have been in email communications with Ben about sponsoring this forum but your powder bashing is the reason I haven't gotten out the checkbook. Why would I pay money to support this place when you, a super moderator, just bash what you don't understand ?
Ayers Garage
120cc
Bob, I'm not gonna sling mud. I understand that you're a painter and I respect that. I used to paint too. Look at it this way, the paint you use today is modern and in no way compares to, say, Nitrocellulose Lacquer of the old days. You're getting better results and much improved durability compared to painters even 20 years ago. Technology has evolved the painting industry to higher levels.
It's the same with powdercoat. Yes, it used to be a very industrial finish that only offered durability and not much beauty. Like your painting industry, powder has evolved greatly since that time. It's considered a "green" industry due to no solvents being released into the atmosphere and has actually been "pushed" further ahead by it's benefits about environmental impact.
The following is a quote from your own website...
Powder coating is one of the toughest finishes available. When properly applied, it offers a nearly chemical-proof, permanent finish. This system has it's own limitations. That very permanence becomes a liability should it ever become damaged or you change your mind. Powder coat is very dificult to remove and on some items cannot be removed, since it must be sanded or burned off. Burning will warp sheetmetal. On a CT70 frame it's a liability as it can never be removed. A dent or a chip will be permanent. Powder coated surfaces can look great on smaller items but, it's not as smooth as paint and cannot be color sanded & buffed. Bodywork is extremely limited as most fillers, including lead, cannot withstand the 400F curing temperature. Headlight shells are plastic and will melt, thus these cannot be powder coated. Any of the smaller, removeable, easily replaceable parts (seat pan, fenders, wheels, hubs, footpegs, tank bracket, kickstart arm, shift lever) are good candidates for powder coat. Wheel hubs must be carefully masked prior to spraying the powder. On larger pieces such as CT70 frames, fenders, or conventional motorcyle tanks, Neither paint nor powdercoat will achieve complete flow-out. The resulting finish will have orange peel and most examples we've seen have been on the dull side. We've seen collector bikes ruined when powdercoat was used to replace the original painted finish on major body parts. Paint can be colorsanded & buffed to perfection, powdercoat cannot. Place two large items, one painted, the powdercoated and there's no comparison. Powdercoat is quick, less expensive and durable, yet no serious bike or car builder or restorer uses it to replqce paint except on small, usually mechanical, parts. No OEMs do either. The reason is simple, it's impractical for sheetmetal parts and the look isn't up-to-snuff. We strongly advise against powder coating any of the painted frame-related pieces including the frame itself, swingarm, chainguard, shock covers and fork parts.
I liken your website quoted above to me stating facts about the paint industry from the 80s. That time is gone and my opinions would be outdated and no longer accurate.
I've already covered that it can be chemically stripped readily without any damage to the underlying substrate. No high temperature burn-off or extended media blasting required. It can be color sanded and buffed just like paint. It does not have to exhibit a rough finish if well applied and quality material is used.
In closing, I have never disrespected your craft or slighted the painting business in any way. I simply state the my craft is an alternative to paint if the customer desires. I don't have anything to gain by slighting your work or other painter's work. I'm pretty much a one trick pony in the Mini Trail business. I have a perfect match for Candy Ruby Red and Cloud Silver and a few others, but I can't offer the variety that a painter can and guarantee a perfect match to other OEM Honda colors. Non original colors, I have thousands to choose from and will put my quality up against paint.
It's the same with powdercoat. Yes, it used to be a very industrial finish that only offered durability and not much beauty. Like your painting industry, powder has evolved greatly since that time. It's considered a "green" industry due to no solvents being released into the atmosphere and has actually been "pushed" further ahead by it's benefits about environmental impact.
The following is a quote from your own website...
Powder coating is one of the toughest finishes available. When properly applied, it offers a nearly chemical-proof, permanent finish. This system has it's own limitations. That very permanence becomes a liability should it ever become damaged or you change your mind. Powder coat is very dificult to remove and on some items cannot be removed, since it must be sanded or burned off. Burning will warp sheetmetal. On a CT70 frame it's a liability as it can never be removed. A dent or a chip will be permanent. Powder coated surfaces can look great on smaller items but, it's not as smooth as paint and cannot be color sanded & buffed. Bodywork is extremely limited as most fillers, including lead, cannot withstand the 400F curing temperature. Headlight shells are plastic and will melt, thus these cannot be powder coated. Any of the smaller, removeable, easily replaceable parts (seat pan, fenders, wheels, hubs, footpegs, tank bracket, kickstart arm, shift lever) are good candidates for powder coat. Wheel hubs must be carefully masked prior to spraying the powder. On larger pieces such as CT70 frames, fenders, or conventional motorcyle tanks, Neither paint nor powdercoat will achieve complete flow-out. The resulting finish will have orange peel and most examples we've seen have been on the dull side. We've seen collector bikes ruined when powdercoat was used to replace the original painted finish on major body parts. Paint can be colorsanded & buffed to perfection, powdercoat cannot. Place two large items, one painted, the powdercoated and there's no comparison. Powdercoat is quick, less expensive and durable, yet no serious bike or car builder or restorer uses it to replqce paint except on small, usually mechanical, parts. No OEMs do either. The reason is simple, it's impractical for sheetmetal parts and the look isn't up-to-snuff. We strongly advise against powder coating any of the painted frame-related pieces including the frame itself, swingarm, chainguard, shock covers and fork parts.
I liken your website quoted above to me stating facts about the paint industry from the 80s. That time is gone and my opinions would be outdated and no longer accurate.
I've already covered that it can be chemically stripped readily without any damage to the underlying substrate. No high temperature burn-off or extended media blasting required. It can be color sanded and buffed just like paint. It does not have to exhibit a rough finish if well applied and quality material is used.
In closing, I have never disrespected your craft or slighted the painting business in any way. I simply state the my craft is an alternative to paint if the customer desires. I don't have anything to gain by slighting your work or other painter's work. I'm pretty much a one trick pony in the Mini Trail business. I have a perfect match for Candy Ruby Red and Cloud Silver and a few others, but I can't offer the variety that a painter can and guarantee a perfect match to other OEM Honda colors. Non original colors, I have thousands to choose from and will put my quality up against paint.
scooter
Well-Known Member
Was out at the Mid Ohio Vintage bike show over the weekend and saw many CT70s at the event. Several were powder coated and one done by Ayers Garage was there. It was a Candy Ruby Red and it was beautiful, dead nuts on as far as color match goes. Having seen the end result, highly recommend you explore that option.
As far as painting goes, I have a reference bike of every color that I've exposed the clean paint under the decal to use as a color match reference. I've laid up many vendor chips against my reference and some are good and some not so good. I'd say the saphire blue, riviera blue and ruby red are probably the easiest and best matched colors IMO. Talk to folks if you can and find a good painter if you go that route. Spending a lot of money for an expert doesn't always get you the best results. I've seen a $1000 paint job that didn't even come close to matching that was done by an "expert" that left the owner of the bike very unhappy and a garage sprayed job done by a skilled amateur that was beautiful. Don't like the rattle can option, after going through all the trouble to get it apart and prepped, make yourself happy and powder coat or paint with a good quality paint.
Oh yeah, I've seen a few really high-dollar - $1200-$1700(!) paint jobs that were beyond horrible... paint that peeled down to the primer when the owner tried to removed a poorly installed decal, which was still fresh; five layers of spray-on filler, enough to LITERALLY fill a grocery bag; mangled headlight ears, dents and rust left untouched...total ripoffs.
Proper prep & quality workmanship take the lion's share of time, skill, & effort; without these, no finishing job, of any kind, will be worth a damn. Getting a tired, battle-scarred frameset stripped, cleaned, blasted, repairing cracks, filling rust pits, removing dents...just making a complete set of tins straight enough for the first stage of primer can easily take two full days by the time the first coat of primer is applied.
Proper prep & quality workmanship take the lion's share of time, skill, & effort; without these, no finishing job, of any kind, will be worth a damn. Getting a tired, battle-scarred frameset stripped, cleaned, blasted, repairing cracks, filling rust pits, removing dents...just making a complete set of tins straight enough for the first stage of primer can easily take two full days by the time the first coat of primer is applied.
johnsgm
Member
JJ . . . When I was in your position a couple years ago I didnt have a choice. Couldnt afford $800 for a paint job for a minibike. My son and I did a rattlecan job on our project and it looks . . . . OK. Maybe even better than OK, but I wouldnt ever do that again. I probably spent $175 in rattle can primer, color and clear and sandpaper etc etc etc. Just not worth it. Since then I have had a Ruby Red Powder Coat finish by Kevin Ayers and a beautiful Emerald Green paintjob by another CT70 pro.
The PC job by Ayers is astonishing. His prep work is flawless and the finish is smooth, deep and spot on color-wise. There is NO orange peel AT ALL ANYWHERE.
If you were doing any other original color and you wanted a "perfect" factory restore then I would say look at paint.
But if you want a jaw-dropping Candy Ruby Red finish that most people would kill for . . . Ayers is your guy.
Oh yeh . . . . at a little over half the cost of some paint jobs.
MarylandCT70
Member
Is Kevin Ayers on this forum? If not, how could I get his contact information?