engine/frame vibration at rpm, HK0

hrc200x

Active Member
This motor feels like it has more power than the other 88's you've ridden? Is it possible a wrong piston or cam was sent with the kit? Can you do a compression test on it? Could a bad secondary coil be causing it to spark at the wrong time creating a vibration? Seems like the coil, wiring harness, igntion and carb are the only parts that make the engine run that are different from the engine builders test bike.
 
I posted the engine vibration video to youtube. Note the Kickstarter rubber, buddy pegs, foot rests, chain, etc., jumping. This is without the engine guard. I’ll post the one on DG’s bike next.



Hi Mean Green,

Have you tightened each and every fastener on the frame?

I noticed that you are missing the mounting bolt for the air cleaner and the front clamp on the muffler header.

The one I would suspect is the swing arm through bolt.

It's definitely not the engine IMO.
 
This motor feels like it has more power than the other 88's you've ridden? Is it possible a wrong piston or cam was sent with the kit? Can you do a compression test on it? Could a bad secondary coil be causing it to spark at the wrong time creating a vibration? Seems like the coil, wiring harness, igntion and carb are the only parts that make the engine run that are different from the engine builders test bike.

It doesn’t seem any more powerful than the other 3 88s in the group, just a lot more vibration. The vibration has been there prior to the rebuild but is more intense with the upgrade. The carbs have been changed.
The coil was new from the original owner’s rebuild and I don’t think I ever replaced it. We have lots of extra parts on hand and could easily replace it with a new one with the engine out. It’s an interesting thought. I wondered if this could be an electrical issue or maybe a wonky timing advance on the flywheel, I’m not sure how that would present. Does anyone have experience with those issues or how they might present? I would think performance would suffer significantly in both cases.
I could easily do a flywheel swap from another 4-speed. The stator, condenser, wiring, and points are all new.
I know all of this is just throwing ideas in the ring until I can narrow down frame vs engine. I agree with what racerx and what others have said, I’ll need to start with an engine swap to help eliminate possibilities.
However, these are good thoughts and I really appreciate them. When I find the time to do this, I have as many things to check or try when I drop this engine...again. These discussions are what will give me ideas before tearing into it.
DG has kindly offered to look at the engine a third time. However, I don’t feel right asking him to do this without me doing my due diligence on my end.
 
Hi Mean Green,

Have you tightened each and every fastener on the frame?

I noticed that you are missing the mounting bolt for the air cleaner and the front clamp on the muffler header.

The one I would suspect is the swing arm through bolt.

It's definitely not the engine IMO.

I tend to agree with you. Just hoping to get all angles before we drop the engine...again. I’ve tightened all bolts, removed the engine guard, removed the heat shield, changed the air box to a k&n style, new swing arm bushings, etc. the rattle is just symptom. Quieting that rattle down would not change the volume and intensity of of the vibration felt while riding rpms past mid throttle.

I will def check the swing arm bolt though for good measure. Thank you.
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
Quieting that rattle down would not change the volume and intensity of of the vibration felt while riding rpms past mid throttle.

Are you saying that the engine vibration comes on at mid rpm, gets worse with increasing revs and is not torque/load sensitive (IOW the same if the engine is revved in neutral, or in any gear)?
 
Here are some other thoughts:
When I purchased this bike, I found that the exhaust has a bad longitudinal and somewhat spiral crack on the bottom face of the gooseneck. It was hidden by the heat shields and was about a 4-6” split. I thought it was an odd injury, but might be indicative of a loose engine torquing against a rigid muffler mount? Might be why this guy finally ditched an otherwise beautifully restored bike.

If the frame engine holes were sloppy what would be the remedy?

I was riding the bike over the holidays in Satellite Beach, FL and Tried to pay more attention to the feel of the bike. It seems jerk the bike right, with loaded throttle acceleration. More so than the other 88s. The other stock bikes and 88 upgrades are smooth and buttery all the way through the power bands of each gear. This one hits mid power band a an orchestra of vibrations begins, that sounds like a fleet of shopping carts rattling, buzzing your feet and bum, much differently than any of the other 15 CT70s in our fleet.

The bike ran and shifted well for 30 miles, until it died on the side of the road and could not be started. Put a new spark plug in and could only get it to idle, any touch of throttle flooded and killed the engine. Main jet issue I thought, but usually I could at least get home with a rough throttle, if the jet was clogged.

Long story short, idled all the way home and pulled off the carb. I instantly found the long needle main jet tube had vibrated out and was flopping around. This was a new CHP carb and I knew it was assembled correctly, since I change the main jet for the 88 upgrade. Never experienced this. Quick fix, thank goodness, but it demonstrates the amount of vibration I am dealing with here. This explained why barely touching the throttle flooded the engine.

The nice part of the story was all the people who stopped and offered tools and assistance while broken down. This included running into a fellow Lil Honda member “MikeJanna”, randomly. He saw the bike and recognized me from my profile pic.

“You meet the nicest people on a Honda” and Mike is definitely a nice guy. He offered to give us and the bike a ride home, tools and assistance. We exchanged information and became quick friends. We will surely ride together in the future. Big thanks to this forum for connecting fellow enthusiasts!!


""I was riding the bike over the holidays in Satellite Beach, FL and Tried to pay more attention to the feel of the bike. It seems jerk the bike right, with loaded throttle acceleration.""

This "jerk to the right" would possibly be the loose swing arm bolt.

"sounds like a fleet of shopping carts rattling"

From the video it sounds like the cable bracket vibrating on the front fender.

These are two separate issues. The engine itself sounds solid.
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
""I was riding the bike over the holidays in Satellite Beach, FL and Tried to pay more attention to the feel of the bike. It seems jerk the bike right, with loaded throttle acceleration.""

This "jerk to the right" would possibly be the loose swing arm bolt.

"sounds like a fleet of shopping carts rattling"

From the video it sounds like the cable bracket vibrating on the front fender.

These are two separate issues. The engine itself sounds solid.

I mostly agree with this. The motor sounds okay to me, too. However, torque steer (if that's what happening) means excessive lateral deflection of the swingarm & wheel assembly. With 88cc, there's just not much more torque than a stocker; it really takes a 55mm+ stroke to make enough torque to start flexing the pivot bushings and that means 130cc, minimum. The pivot bolt would have to be really loose...so much so that it'd be impossible to miss...to be the root cause. OTOH, the swingarm is a structural component of the rolling chassis. Without a solid pivot assembly: bushings, internal spacer + bolt, properly torqued, the lower engine mount & swingarm mount would be an incredibly weak point for the frame. He says he replaced the swingarm bushings and that, imo, requires a level of mechanical skills that, ostensibly, rules out a rookie mistake like leaving the swingarm pivot bolt loose. I'm left with the impression that it's something basic...but arcane enough to be overlooked.

Having a number of other bikes to use for reference should make this easier. Quickest test, at this time, swingarm deflection. Grab the chain with one hand and squeeze it like grip strengthener...then repeat the test with one of the other bike and note any differences. If there's significantly more lateral swingarm deflection, you'll see it; then it'll come down to figuring out why. If not, time to look elsewhere, which is why I suggest the engine & frame swaps. Gotta figure out what/where the problem is: engine, chassis, owner perception...or some unusual combination.

As much as I don't expect this to be an engine problem, it's not completely out of the question...yet. Every once in a great while, one's luck can be spectacularly sour. Build enough engines and eventually you'll come across one that insists on running through the hall with scissors. A crank that's off by an extra couple of thousandths, a tweaked flywheel, or even an imbalanced clutch, is all it'd take and none of those are common enough to suspect, or all that easy to check. I don't know how one would check clutch balance, other than by swapping them & retesting. I've not run across clutch balance problem, ever (yet?) thus it seems highly unlikely, imho. That said, we're making blind guesses and it sounds like Darrel has thrown "everything but the kitchen sink" at this motor, yet the answer remains elusive, the vibration unchanged. Until the problem can be isolated (frame, engine, swingarm, owner perception) I wouldn't go back into the engine. At most, for now, I'd try a flywheel swap...which I thought had already be done. IMO, the problem has to be isolated and the list of things to check is getting short.
 
Are you saying that the engine vibration comes on at mid rpm, gets worse with increasing revs and is not torque/load sensitive (IOW the same if the engine is revved in neutral, or in any gear)?
This is correct. Smooth until about mid RPM range within each of the 4 gears and gets progressively worse with increased RPM. Shift to the next gear in lower RPM, it’s smooth until about mid RPM and then progressively worse, and so on. The RPMs are the key. This is true under load, in gear, in neutral, clutch in/clutch out, free spinning on a jack and in gear. Or when backing off from high RPM still in gear. Or when in 4th smooth in low rpm gear and downshifting to 3rd to a higher RPM. No matter. It does a weird hollow “WAAAAH WAAAH WAH WAH WAH WAH” sound Too.

The rattle of the shopping cart description is just an example of the end symptom. Cover up the rattle and the vibration is still there.
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
The logical conclusion is that it's imbalance in the rotating assembly, with the flywheel being the most likely issue...followed by a tweaked crankshaft...with the clutch coming in a distant third. If it were the crankshaft counter-weighting being off the mark, then the motor should go through the rough spot, or at least have a smooth rpm range at higher revs. Constant & intensifying with rpm means something is out-of-balance and rotating, not reciprocating.
 
I tend to agree with you. Just hoping to get all angles before we drop the engine...again. I’ve tightened all bolts, removed the engine guard, removed the heat shield, changed the air box to a k&n style, new swing arm bushings, etc. the rattle is just symptom. Quieting that rattle down would not change the volume and intensity of of the vibration felt while riding rpms past mid throttle.

I will def check the swing arm bolt though for good measure. Thank you.

Hi Meangreen,

Did you ever resolve your vibration issue?

VHTB
 
Hi Meangreen,

Did you ever resolve your vibration issue?

VHTB
Not yet, due to busy traveling during the holidays. Also, that bike and most of the fleet are at my uncle's home and the flu season has done a number on their family. I have one of my bikes up in Jacksonville and all the other bikes are in Orlando, about 1 hour and 45 mins away. I have a one car garage full of toys and he has a 3 car garage with all the great tools.

We usually just plan a work weekend for big stuff or scheduled maintenance, which is why I have been trying to do some more aggressive research. It takes good research and planning to make sure our work weekends are productive and the needed parts are on hand.

Thanks to your input, I have a good game plan: swap flywheels first, 2nd, swap engines and inspect frame. Things should be more clear after that. I will definitely keep everyone updated with progress and results. I think that is the most valuable part of these tech Q&As that seems to be missed; the outcome and the smoking gun. On a lot of the threads, the initial person who asks the question never reports those things!
 
I was wondering about this issue the other day myself.


Hi, I did read all of the posts yesterday, but so many people replied i cant remember if this has already been asked, and now that engine is out, you will have to wait to try it.

Why is the Skidpan not on the bike? Did you try it with it on? Even if you do not want it on this bike, you could still try it.
If your worried about the paint, you could use some rubber washers between the pan and the frame. That's one thing to try.

The second thing is, i had a CT90 do the same exact thing! Vibrate like there was no tomorrow, and all kids of noise.
Took a long time to find it, cause the bike was not loud. It was the MUFFLER! I changed it, and it went completely away.
I put it back on, and it came right back. I still have that Muffler, and when its on the ground and you hit it with a Plastic Hammer, you can barely hear a small rattle. Something in there is NOT welded down fast. At the right RPM the whole bike goes into a shake, in gear or not in gear.

Thanks Roy
 
Hi, I did read all of the posts yesterday, but so many people replied i cant remember if this has already been asked, and now that engine is out, you will have to wait to try it.

Why is the Skidpan not on the bike? Did you try it with it on? Even if you do not want it on this bike, you could still try it.
If your worried about the paint, you could use some rubber washers between the pan and the frame. That's one thing to try.

The second thing is, i had a CT90 do the same exact thing! Vibrate like there was no tomorrow, and all kids of noise.
Took a long time to find it, cause the bike was not loud. It was the MUFFLER! I changed it, and it went completely away.
I put it back on, and it came right back. I still have that Muffler, and when its on the ground and you hit it with a Plastic Hammer, you can barely hear a small rattle. Something in there is NOT welded down fast. At the right RPM the whole bike goes into a shake, in gear or not in gear.

Thanks Roy
I don't think that your engine is out of balance. Like the administrator said, Single Cylinder Engines will go in and out of balance at different frequencies and can not be in perfect balance of the entire RPM range.

You can check to see if the Engine is in- Balance, by making it out of Balance! (see picture).

You can use two indicators for this test, one watch the front fender, the other, is a piece of THIN wire about 6 inches long, mounted to the left intake manifold bolt, handing out into the breeze.

Mount the Hose clamp on the Flywheel, there is 8 holes in the flywheel, start with the one that is close to the T mark, and run the test. stop engine and move the clamp to the next hole, and so on.
Do this test at IDLE speed! If the Engine was all ready in-Balance, then it should SHAKE the same amounts for each position. If one particular place make a big difference, well then you may have a problem.

Note: do not add extra weight to the clamp, the the bolt and nut thing is more then enough weight to run the test.
also, i would cut off any extra length of the clamp.

And as always, use the proper safety equipment, and don't try this at home.

Thanks Roy.
flywheel.jpg
 
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