CT70 Lighting Coil Exposed

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
I'm talking about 6v too. Re-wrapping a 6v coil to be a more powerful 6v coil. Using the 12 to 6v regulator as a...6volt regulator...to regulate a more powerful 6v lighting coil, so as not to blow bulbs.

The atc flywheel does not have the advancing mech. But I think a...xr75 or xr80 or something might have a advancing flywheel that LOOKS like it could fit...big stretch there...and not sure if that's the right bike.
 
I'm talking about 6v too. Re-wrapping a 6v coil to be a more powerful 6v coil. Using the 12 to 6v regulator as a...6volt regulator...to regulate a more powerful 6v lighting coil, so as not to blow bulbs.

The atc flywheel does not have the advancing mech. But I think a...xr75 or xr80 or something might have a advancing flywheel that LOOKS like it could fit...big stretch there...and not sure if that's the right bike.

Yep, hope there is something for the 4 speed, I am pretty impressed with the Light , now if I just rewire the Light to run from the Battery, it SHOULD be constant brightness all the time. That's what I was always looking for anyway, I just wanted the light to stay steady, even if it was not super bright.
 

allenp42

Well-Known Member
Will you be looking at the battery-less K2 Z50's too

Yep. Going test Z50 K2 thru about 75. I already know the 76-78 Z50 is wound a little differently than a K2 - K6. Just haven't slowed down long enough to post and explain the differences.

The all DC powered CL70's?

Don't have one at the moment. Had one a few months ago but sold it. I was in the mode of if I don't think I'd ever have a use, get rid of it. Regretting it now.......

I also have a 3speed crank that's good, but with a slightly monkeyed keyway.

If you have one with a buggered up keyway and can't be used, I'd like to have it. I think I must have monkey'd with my 3 speed crank because it is out of balance. Most noticeable at about 4,000 rpm. My buggered up H crank spins up smooth as silk. Will gladly send a few bitcoins your way.

That sounds good to me, but I guess you would have to ask Allen. I am sticking with 6 VOLT

Right now I think that J. Pardue's suggestion to use a Full Wave setup with the Green and Yellow may have some fruit on the branches.

I just finished testing a K1 Flywheel, K1 Stator, 1/2 wave rectifier (silicon, not Se), and an almost new AGM Battery. Interesting. Once again, Honda did their home work and what I see matches the few published specs that I found.

Right now, I'm running out of meters that I trust :(. So it's just going to takes a little longer than it should.

Hopefully, I'll get the results from the 77 flywheel this afternoon. Will post them both side by side to make easier to draw conclusions.
 

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
I'll gather some stuff to send your way. I have a good lookin Mitsubishi cl stator and flywheel kicking around the garage right now. A 3speed plate that has a rebuild kit on it...kinda poorly installed...want to test it? Unwind it? A dratv Mitsubishi stator replacement that they used to sell...want to test that? Probably just for kicks?
I think I have a 1974...or 9 ATC70 stator too, that looks just like a CT70 version.

I'll grab the atc70 flywheel from storage and send that too if you're interested. Might be interesting to see how the 80's atc stator works with the correct flywheel..?
 

allenp42

Well-Known Member
Glad to do anything you send me. I thinking that I can now get close on the number of windings by taking a few physical measurements and by using a precision ohm meter I now have. Just don't forget that buggered up crankshaft;)
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
Yep, hope there is something for the 4 speed, I am pretty impressed with the Light , now if I just rewire the Light to run from the Battery, it SHOULD be constant brightness all the time. That's what I was always looking for anyway, I just wanted the light to stay steady, even if it was not super bright.
Nope, there's nothing else for the 4-speeds. For me, that, along with the sheer number of 6v motors out there, is a major driver behind the full wave rewind/conversion. Of course, going to a 12v alternator is possible but, that's a lot of changes and a substantial chunk of change...unless one has a really huge sofa.

What you're going to find is that, with HL power coming from the battery, you will have a partial-loss lighting/charging system. HL output should be stable but, the DC power coming through is going to be less than 50% of the AC fed into the rectifier. Transforming half the waveform into waste heat is inefficient. I ran this setup for ~15 years on my main rider. With a 12v/5.0ah battery onboard and a guesstimated 15-18W of DC power on the charging circuit, powering a 35W HL bulb & 1W LED TL, I estimated a solid 3 hours of HL power...which was never tested. What bothered me was the lack DTRLs, a safety issue. Available 6v SLA batteries top out in the 5.0ah range, roughly half the charge capacity of the 12v flavor...which is very believable, as they are half the physical volume.

There may be a little more output coming from the yellow HL lead. Kirby unwound one of these 6v coils and, as I recall, there were more windings on that "side" of the coil. The problem remains, insufficient wattage. Let's say, for example, that the alternator can make 35W, total/combined AC power and that the yellow lead gets "the big 50%"...20W. That's not going to do the job. Even if it's 25W, we'd be lucky to see more than 10W DC downstream of the diode rectifier. With a total lighting draw (HL + TL + instrument bulbs) of 30W the math sez that there'd be about 80 minutes of runtime, before the 6v/5.0ah battery would be discharged. Unfortunately, there's no way to combine the yellow & white leads, since they are both run to ground. That is THE issue. Going to a full wave setup solves the problem. With, say, 35W total output, fed through an efficient bridge diode rectifier/voltage regulator, there'd be more like 34W available to the battery. The operative word here is "available". Unlike the OEM setup, excess power is dumped to ground, thanks to 21st century (or at least later 20th century) electronics.

I began dealing with the electrical inadequacies of these bikes years before this board was created. What I'm presenting here is a distillation of my own R&D. Believe me, if there were an easier way of getting the results that many of us want, someone would have discovered it and the info would have been shared long ago. Even the voltage issue, 12v vs 6v, is more about practicality than technology. There's no reason why the same circuitry/component designs wouldn't work with 6v, or any other specified voltage. It's simply a matter of available components; 6v stuff was obsolete decades ago. If one could source a 6v full-wave reg/rec unit, then all of the bulbs + the battery could be left as they are. IMHO, however, that'd leave one with very few alternatives and products come & go over time. Swapping bulbs is easy...and the world is mostly populated by 12v versions.
 

allenp42

Well-Known Member
OK, got the test done comparing a K1 stator with both a K1 flywheel and with a 77 Flywheel. Just as a refresher I have seen no difference in a K0 or K1 and up 76...so the K1 stator was still laying out so it was the guinea pig.

Something that I should have made clear from the beginning. I think Bob (racerx) or someone touched on it in one of the postings. The tests that I/m doing are on a bench with almost no lose from wiring, bullet connecters, switches, bulb sockets, etc. In the real world and on any bike, there will be a few tenths of ohms between the stator and bulb or battery. At the currents you see, this will easy equate to ~0.5v to maybe as high 1v drop on the lighting voltage. This is just an educated guess. I have not measured it...but know it's there. Point here is the voltage at the device, will be a little lower than ANYTHING I have posted.

My opinion on the comparison:

1.) The 77 flywheel is a horse!
2.) Not a battery charging expert, but with nothing in place to limit the charge to the battery, battery life has to suffer.
3.) Duty cycle: for those like me that putz around the neighborhood for an hour or 2, nothing to worry about.
4.) A true road warrior is a horse of a different animal. 2.90 amps to 3.5 amps is a lot of juice delivered to the battery for long periods of time during daylight hours. I took a peek at the spec sheet for the AGM battery I have, not a lot there to help at this point.
5.) For those that like the bennies of the 77 flywheel, I'm leaning toward always having the HL on.

Anyone, please feel free to question or poke holes in my logic. Any by all means, if you find an error, point it out.

Did I mention I'm having fun and not a battery charging expert?
 

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kirrbby

Well-Known Member
I'm remembering that the 81-85 ATC70'S use a crank like the CT70 H. Soo...I don't think that flywheel will work on a 3speed. I'm gonna send it anyway, so you can at least properly test the 80's stator with it. You'll need to run it on the h crank tho. It DOES seem to have good strong magnets in it too.
I did find the 3sp crank. It should work.

IMG_20190103_180648318.jpg IMG_20190103_181543458.jpg
 

allenp42

Well-Known Member
Not a problem. Can easily test a ATC70 Flywheel and stator. That 3 speed crank looks fine to me. So far I've used used mostly parts of no value. I did have to step up and get a different motor. The one I started out with just would not spin up the 77 flywheel w/o getting really hot.

You'll like this. I was so concerned about overcharging the battery with no HL, that I put a tupperware container over the battery in case things didn't go well.
 

allenp42

Well-Known Member
I don’t believe neodymium magnets existed until the 80’s

Well, I talked with with an old mentor this evening about what we're trying to do. Very interesting conversation to say this least. This fellow is sharp as a tack with tons of hands on experience, education, experimentation, persistence, and a shop full of most every piece of test equipment one could imagine. In summary, he pretty much confirmed that we're on the right track considering the limitations.

He has a few gauss meters but never used them and think it would be hassle to set one such it could accurately measure the strength of the magnets. Maybe some of the newer gauss meters would do the trick, but nothing he has would yield any useful data. He quoted Faraday's law off the top of his head and even brought up neodymium magnets, but his next words were "probably too difficult to implement into an existing flywheel". Thought of Scooter when he brought up the magnets.

I don't have the patience or persistence of Thomas Edison, but also I don't think it's going to take a 1000 attempts at squeezing more juice from the existing stator.
 
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Well, I talked with with an old mentor this evening about what we're trying to do. Very interesting conversation to say this least. This fellow is sharp as a tack with tons of hands on experience, education, experimentation, persistence, and a shop full of most every piece of test equipment one could imagine. In summary, he pretty much confirmed that we're on the right track considering the limitations.

He has a few gauss meters but never used them and think it would be hassle to set one such it could accurately measure the strength of the magnets. Maybe some of the newer gauss meters would do the trick, but nothing he has would yield any useful data. He quoted Faraday's law off the top of his head and even brought up neodymium magnets, but his next words were "probably a difficult to implement into an existing flywheel". Thought of Scooter when he brought up the magnets.

I don't have the patience or persistence of Thomas Edison, but also I don't think it's going to take a 1000 attempts at squeezing more juice from the existing stator.

I was so caught up in the HL, that forgot to tell everyone about this:
I did not run any test on the Charging Circuit, before or after the Flywheel swap, cause it would have involved to many things like having the Battery fully charged and I would have to got out a AMP meter and all that, BUT i did do one TEST.

I Checked the Secondary output of the IGN coil, with a load bearing tester that i have, and the Spark went up about 4000 Volts, from the old Flywheel. And it idled smother, in fact I was able to adjust the mixture screw leaner then it possible before, just to see if it could be done. I would not say that it gained any HP, but the overall running of the Engine was smoother.

Thanks Roy
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
I don't have the patience or persistence of Thomas Edison, but also I don't think it's going to take a 1000 attempts at squeezing more juice from the existing stator.

I'd be a little surprised if it took more than 4 attempts at winding to realize a viable result... 2 with the same gauge wire (or as close as possible) - one with approximately the same footage as stock, one wound to the physical limits of the available real estate, 1 each using one gauge smaller & larger wire, with as much footage as will fit. One of those should be clearly better than the others and I'm betting that at least one of them will be, truly, good enough. If nothing else, that ought to "bracket" the results well enough to point toward the most efficient of the 4 basic combos...the one most likely to be worth further refinement, if that's even desired. From other stator results I've seen, it seems very possible that the first attempt will prove viable.

I'm basing things on being able to use ~95% of total alternator output as DC. Readily available full-wave reg/rec units are more efficient than that. We know that the stock bulbs' total draw is close to 30W...with at least 30% of total alternator output being used to generate waste heat.
 

allenp42

Well-Known Member
Roy - Not surprised that the spark is little hotter. However, I haven't given much thought to the pri coil yet. At this stage of the game, I just know the Pri coil in 77-79 has more resistance than anything prior. Don't know if the wire gauge is smaller or if it has more turns. Just haven't looked at it.

Bob - I agree. I'm going to slow done for a day or 2 to make sure I get my notes in order. If I don't write it down along with a few "notes to self", I'll be repeating everything again within a few weeks. If I'm lucky, I should be able to get my first test done next week. Then I'll make an educated guess on the next size magnet wire to order.
 
Roy - Not surprised that the spark is little hotter. However, I haven't given much thought to the pri coil yet. At this stage of the game, I just know the Pri coil in 77-79 has more resistance than anything prior. Don't know if the wire gauge is smaller or if it has more turns. Just haven't looked at it.

Bob - I agree. I'm going to slow done for a day or 2 to make sure I get my notes in order. If I don't write it down along with a few "notes to self", I'll be repeating everything again within a few weeks. If I'm lucky, I should be able to get my first test done next week. Then I'll make an educated guess on the next size magnet wire to order.

Two things Allen. The spark was something that I thought of moments before I put the Flywheel on. To me, it's just a added bonus.

The other thing is, I have 2 big rolls of Magnet wire. I got them from a Electric Motor Shop years ago. And of all things, do you want to know what i got them for? That's right, I was going to make a Magnet Charger !

I use to fool with, and still do sometimes, Old Hit & Miss Engines! A lot of them use Wico and Fairbanks Mags and according to a lot of guys that rebuild the Mags, they say that the Mag benefits greatly if you recharge the Magnet right in place. But I would diffidently NOT recommend trying this on a Honda OR any modern Magnet, you would probably pull some of the magnetism out of it.

Thanks Roy.
 

allenp42

Well-Known Member
The other thing is, I have 2 big rolls of Magnet wire. I got them from a Electric Motor Shop years ago. And of all things, do you want to know what i got them for? That's right, I was going to make a Magnet Charger !

Sure. What gauge wire do you have? If it's 20 or 21 gauge, I may be interested.
 
OK, Well i did what is said i was going to do, I found that poor old 77,CT70 out in the barn! I removed the Flywheel and installed it on the K1!

WOW what a BIG difference in the HL output!!! It was just like night and day.
Even at idle, you can really see the difference, and at any RPM above idle, it was almost like it was wired up to a good size Battery. Of course the brightness was variable with RPM, but it seamed like it was in a much more tighter band, if you know what i am saying. I rode it for over a hour and a half, expecting the bulb to pop at any time, but it never did.

Allen, now i think that this is kind of showing me what to expect if i wire up the HL to use battery power, like we discussed before. And I hope that you continue with your R&D work on this!

Also: I did not get a chance to research the newer Flywheel usage, but i am sure that i read about this years ago.

Thanks Roy.

Maximum Potential has been reached!
Last Sunday, when i reported how bright the HL was, i said something about it being a tighter band.

Explanation: with the old flywheel, the light was very dim at idle, and when i was at high revs it just kept getting brighter till the engine was ready to blow up.

With the 77 Flywheel, at idle it, it is brighter, and any RPM above idle, it is as bright as it is going to get!
Another word, at 3 miles an hour OR at 10 thousand RPM the Light is at Maximum output.

So I THINK that the Stator is now giving all that it's got and it is doing it at a low RPM.
Don't get me wrong, The Light IS much Brighter, and the good thing is you don't have to be going fast.
So, If Allen can come up with a plan, we are in business. If nothing else we can still change Flywheels, at least for the Automatics.

PS: Bob, after reading some of your posts, I can see why the 6 Volt thing has left a sour spot on you.
You did a lot of work trying to get it better. I gets frustrating . Now i can see why you op for 12Volt and electronic Ignition. I did the same thing on BSA's and Triumph MC, Thinking I could make things better, and some things I was able to improve, but other things had built in problems that would cost a fortune to rectify.

Thanks Roy.
 

allenp42

Well-Known Member
With the 77 Flywheel, at idle it, it is brighter, and any RPM above idle, it is as bright as it is going to get! Another word, at 3 miles an hour OR at 10 thousand RPM the Light is at Maximum output.

I think you're correct. The 77-79 flywheel perks up the stator a bit. That is good news, because I did not see much fruit from using the yellow and and green in a full wave configuration (2 diodes, not a bridge) on a standard K1 stator & Flywheel. At most, all I saw was an incremental 5-6 watts at 6,000 RPM. I'm a little under the weather so did not run the full range for this setup. Would not expect much more even at 8,000 so I think it's a mute point. Bottom line - a little fruit but definably not enough for a meal.
 
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