Trans mounted clutch... TRX90

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure how many miles I put on my Dax, but it's more than 3000. It has a Modernworks (I was wrong before) 4 valve roller rocker head. It's a low dollar part, maybe 350 or so, but it has held up thus far. Each time I've checked the valve lash, it's been too close to mess with. I don't race it, but I haven't babied it since break-in. We'll see how it holds up in the hands of a younger version of me now...kirrbby'son. I'm sure he won't baby it either. There's still no oil cooler on that bike BTW. Roller rockers = less friction/heat? I think maybe.
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
There's something to be said for experimentation, looking for a challenge. Searching through catalogs and tech articles is a gearhead treasure hunt. Engine building/tuning can be a great place to flex those creative muscles. Try as I might, I cannot come up with a concise, overarching, explanation that will make most choices clear for most owner/builders out there. IMHO, it's that humungous gray area, and all of the possible combos lurking there, that keeps things interesting. Best I can offer is a list of a few of the extremes, which define certain boundaries, and the rationale behind some choices, primarily my own. How many members will fully understand, let alone agree, is debatable. IMHO, there are no "one-size-fits-all" answers. Beyond that, it's all varying shades of gray. For those of us with a number of bikes, building each one for a different purpose opens the door for a highly-specialized build...or several. It almost demands that. Too many copies of the same thing gets boring.

I've been around, and part of, the gearhead world longer than most, which accounts for a goodly amount of my perspective...which has changed & evolved a lot over six decades. Everyone should have the same opportunity to go through the process and as they see fit to do. I've simply reached a point where serious riding is the top priority and other parameters...a.k.a. the rest of the bike...need attention, to achieve balance. That's not for everyone.

IMHO, peak horsepower, top speed and up-front cost draw too much attention. I've experienced 80mph+, on a well-setup, CT70; it's not that enjoyable and, at this late date, no longer even boast-worthy...let alone practical. It's enough of a challenge balancing a rolling chassis for 60mph power (which is easily achieved, these days)...a topic about as glamorous, in text, as shopping for a new refrigerator...and not something you really want to live without. Aside from a closed course, 99% of the miles will be accumulated while traveling below 60mph.That doesn't invalidate any engines, or tuning combos. Even limiting the discussion to powerplants, those three headline numbers don't really tell you much. There's the qualitative side, mostly comprising the "how", rather than the "how much", it's what you'll be living with, as the rider. That's where engine discussions get meaty.

My money was on, I'm just gonna put the reliable stock Honda Nice head on and not have to worry about it.;)
A specific item on which I can comment, from firsthand experience. Jarred's motor will give up some top end horsepower, in favor of proven durability. Yet, it's almost a non-issue. The stock Nice head, with minimal...and I do mean minimal...port cleanup can easily support 70mph power levels. I'd be more surprised if his 62mm-stroked Nice couldn't pull that, at the minimum. Torque will be unaffected so, the reduced hp will only move the needle a little bit downward on the seat-of-the-pants dyno. IOW, this thing will pull itself along with effortless ease well beyond 60mph, with a fat & flat torque curve...power across the entire rev range, without much of a peak. It'll almost ignore headwinds and modest grades...a torque-surfer's dream. All else the same, hp differences are due to the rpm at which the peak occurs and that kind of power difference registers more on the speedo dial than the s.o.t.p. dyno.

Funny (as in "peculiar", not "ha-ha") thing is that I see more similarities, than differences, between the Nice & TRX heads, including the laughably small valves and 5.0mm valve stems. My stock, daily rider, is going strong after 23,000 miles of vigorous use; I don't baby it, in the least. And it's not the first one I've seen reach this milestone. IMHO, the facts speak for themselves.
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
There's still no oil cooler on that bike BTW. Roller rockers = less friction/heat? I think maybe.
If it's not overheating, then no additional cooling capacity is needed. The roller rockers have less than nothing to do with it. Were this not the case, burnt cam lobes & rockers would be an epidemic. Roller rockers do have less friction. However, the main advantage is that they allow more nearly "square" lobe profiles and valve acceleration rates that would wipe the lobes off of a flat rocker (or tappet, with automotive engines) cam. Keeping the valve at higher average lift, with the same gross duration, increases power like a wilder cam cam profile but without the low-rpm efficiency loss. Getting more airflow without sacrificing any driveability...like having your cake and eating it, to a tuner.
 

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
. However a TRX 90 split clutch setup might work nicely by adding a manual clutch lever modification and keep the centrifugal clutch intact. It would live a long semi auto life, eliminate engine stalling and if needed allow one to rev up the stall speed temporarily by slipping the manual clutch plates with a hand lever in tough situations.

SS LS1, modifying the cover to be able to slip the main shaft clutch using a hand lever, like in the YouTube vids you posted would work if done well. But you can slip the clutch the same way with the toe shifter. You might gain a little better control by being able to use the hand lever is all. But you can do the same thing with your toe on the shift lever. I think the trick would be to have the right spring to provide positive movement in BOTH directions. Just enough spring so it's not too hard to pull the lever, but enough to return to the correct position when you release the lever, with no hangups.

Also, you would need to be careful not to let the cable pull too far. It could jump that plate over the ramp completely, instead of riding up the ramp, then returning to the low spot.
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
Control is the issue, especially when riding offroad. When negotiating rapid transitions over whoop-de-doos, the tranny takes a beating from all of the backlash. Not very easy releasing the clutch, to prevent the repeated transitional shock loading, using the shifter. And, you'd be changing gears. With a hand lever, the trans can be left in second gear while the clutch is modulated, with precision. On the road, it would be far less of an issue, mostly just mastering a different shift technique. Like anything else, it's a tradeoff. The main upside of a semi-auto clutch, imho, is being able to ride one-handed. That's handy at swap meets, or when carrying something like a bag of ice, or a water jug.

AFAIK, most of the spring action will come from the clutch pack springs. I understand what you're saying...about the bellcrank return action, which affects the clutch lever. If there's no external "watch" spring on the bellcrank pivot, it should be fairly easy to adapt one from another secondary-clutch engine.
 

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
And, you'd be changing gears.

Oh ya...lol. That could be a problem. I can modulate the clutch without changing gears on a smooth road. But on the trail, accidental gear changes would be a real challenge. The hand lever would be the ticket. It looks like it would be easy enough to rig it up on the cheap too. I think maybe even I could do it. I bought 3 or 4 trx90 clutch covers from one ebay seller a while back, for like 3 or 4 dollars each, plus shipping. They seem to be cheap and plentiful.
 

SS LS1

New Member
Yes, modulating an auto clutch with your foot on a shift lever while riding off road on a trike with rigid suspension is nearly impossible. Unless you are a much better rider than I am. LOL :D

It really only works well on a hole shot where you shift from neutral into first gear and hold the shift lever up with your foot allowing you to rev the engine up. Then when ready to go you slide your foot off the shifter and let it snap into gear and rip away. It's not really what you would do while climbing a hill in 2nd or 3rd gear and trying to keep the front wheel on the ground. The hand lever option would be much easier IMO. :red70:
 

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
I don't see the point in modifying a trx90 clutch cover to do this. You should be able to bolt on a garden variety chinese clutch cover. It already has the space you need to accomodate the one-way clutch and has the shifter throw. There has to be a way to use one of those...like from a Lifan 125 or something. As a matter of fact you could also purchase a honda wave cover which already has the kicker hole in it, or you can potentially use a Honda Nice cover if you add a little oil bung on the inside.
 
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kirrbby

Well-Known Member
clutchTechdata.JPG
These do look like just the ticket for my TRX90 motor. I haven't found anywhere that's selling the complete setup tho. I'm finding the covers only.
If we can find it with all the bits and seals and such, I'd buy one so I can get it doctored up to work while I have the motor on the bench. Then just hang onto it for when/if I want to use it. Looks like all it needs is a way to mate the oil supply to the crank. Then sort out the cable.

https://goo.gl/images/yywNQq

clutchTechdata.JPG
 

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
I can find all of the parts online. Best pricing is going between the pitster pro website, and eBay...about 60 bucks. But that's with a generic cover, which makes me question the quality. All new parts tho.

Planetminis would probably be a better bet to find a "genuine Lifan" cover, lol. Maybe I'll post a want ad over there.
 

fatcaaat

Well-Known Member
I can find all of the parts online. Best pricing is going between the pitster pro website, and eBay...about 60 bucks. But that's with a generic cover, which makes me question the quality. All new parts tho.

Planetminis would probably be a better bet to find a "genuine Lifan" cover, lol. Maybe I'll post a want ad over there.
Post on the Facebook Page for Planetminis. The PM site is pretty much dead.
 

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
My want ads didn't bear fruit. I ordered up new parts today. Some are coming from China, so it might take a while to get all of it.. The main cover is a Thumpstar part and it is coming from California. That's the main part that I need to be able to figure out how to make it work.. Main question is how it will mate up with the stock TRX90 crank.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Right-Cover-110cc-125cc-140cc-150cc-160cc-Pit-Dirt-Bike-YCF-Pitster-SSR/122210645095?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
 
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kirrbby

Well-Known Member
I got the cover and actuator arm in the mail today. I started lookin, and measuring...will it work, and how. If it's gonna work as we've discussed...centrifugal clutch with a manual override...it will definitely take some work.

The shift shaft will have to be cut off short...more like a manual shift shaft on a CT70 H. This cover has a post that is meant to hit on the end of the shift shaft to keep the shaft from sliding too far right.

To make the cover accept the end of the stock TRX90 crankshaft, this little oiler post will need to be milled off, and then center drilled, 12mm+ but that post IS only 12mm diameter overall. Soo...I'll have to weld in, all 5 inside corners, to give enough material to drill a 12mm+ hole in the center. Then there is a shoulder and a 10.5mm hole that's drilled 3 or 4mm deeper. This is how the stock TRX90 cover is made. Will also need a little milled off the webbing so the heads of the oil spinner screws don't rub.
Hopefully everything else will work without any other mods.
The last pic is the Honda cover, and is how the Chinese cover needs to be milled.

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69ST

Well-Known Member
FWIW, I'd be looking to modify the oil spinner/centrifugal clutch cover, rather than the outer clutch cover. The 3 allen head bolts could either have the heads turned shorter, or be replaced with button heads. That'd require less-involved mods and no welding. What is worrisome, imho, is the unsupported end of the shifter shaft. Honda added that support for a reason. I'm beginning to understand why Terry's solution was an hydraulic slave cylinder, with a modified OEM outer clutch cover. Strikes me as far cleaner and simpler.
 

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
Button heads for sure, but I still might need to mill a fuzz off of the oil tube/web on the outer cover...pic #3. That's no problem really.

But the welding is needed, as best I can figure.
In pics one and three...my knife points at the oil feeder..."boss"?? The OD of that boss is about 12mm. In pic #2, the end of the crank is 12mm also. I have to drill a 12mm hole straight down the center of the oil feed "boss", which will remove it completely. The 12mm hole needs to go 6mm deep into the 5 ribs on the inside of the outer cover. So, I need to fill in the center V of all of the ribs so there is enough aluminum to drill a 12mm hole, dead center...like the trx cover in the last pic. The hard part it getting that 12mm hole located exactly...dead center, for the crankshaft to ride in it.
 

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
I still have the slave cylinder that Terry had planned to use on my dax. But that's ALL I have. And from the measuring that I've done, I'll need some custom parts machined to make it work.
 

69ST

Well-Known Member
Button heads for sure, but I still might need to mill a fuzz off of the oil tube/web on the outer cover...pic #3. That's no problem really.

But the welding is needed, as best I can figure.
In pics one and three...my knife points at the oil feeder..."boss"?? The OD of that boss is about 12mm. In pic #2, the end of the crank is 12mm also. I have to drill a 12mm hole straight down the center of the oil feed "boss", which will remove it completely. The 12mm hole needs to go 6mm deep into the 5 ribs on the inside of the outer cover. So, I need to fill in the center V of all of the ribs so there is enough aluminum to drill a 12mm hole, dead center...like the trx cover in the last pic. The hard part it getting that 12mm hole located exactly...dead center, for the crankshaft to ride in it.

That's why I wonder about altering the "oil through" feed that's part of the oil spinner cover, instead. Might I suggest doing a test fit, with the oil spinner cover & shifter shaft removed? If the centrifugal clutch clears the outer clutch cover, then the oil spinner cover mods could be viable and fairly easy. I think that a Honda Nice "oil through" could be adapted, though I'd really need to see the inside of the oil spinner to dare make that call. If that'll work, then it'd be a matter of working on the shift shaft outer support. For that, I see machining a support from billet aluminum, punching an oversized hole in the outer clutch cover, then welding it in, using the shift shaft, in-situ, to precisely establish the location...and serve as welding jig. FWIW...
 

kirrbby

Well-Known Member
The "oil thru" on the spinner cover, is actually not a oil thru, but the end of the super long trx90 crankshaft, protruding THROUGH the spinner cover.

The shift shaft can simply be cut off at my pencil point, since the clutch release bits will not be used. It's the same as the difference between a auto, and a manual CT70 shift shaft.

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